German OOB 16: minor corrections

[Mario_Fr]

Here are some other things that I`ve noticed, mostly regarding inconsistency of the size of units.

Unit number 62, 482 and 483 (SdKfz 7/1 FlaK and 7/2) all have a size of 3 and should have size 4 as the prime mover SdKfz 7 (number 79).

The SdKfz 6/2 (unit 324) has size 5. Actually SdKfz 6 was slightly smaller than SdKfz 7 and should maybe also have a size of 4.

Unit number 387 (JPz I) has size 3, unit 43 has size 2.

Unit number 155 (Kfz 70 Protze) has size 3, 453 has 2 (regarding to the picture it`s the same truck (Krupp Protze), the different Kfz-numbers are only due to the different purpose as personnel carrier or towing guns).

PzKw IB (unit 461) has size 2, all the other Panzer I`s have size 3.

Unit number 507 (JPz IV/70V) has size 2 which maybe is right because of it`s low profile (height 1.85m) but then unit 503 and 504 (JPz IV/48) also should have size 2 (the had the same chassis).
The Alkett version JPz IV/70A (unit 510) has an height of 2.35m and so correclty has a size of 3.
So the question is if unit 507 should be corrected or 503 and 504 should be changed to size 2.

Unit number 938 (PzKw 355 739f) and 455 (Munitionswagen) have no pictures.


Mario

[DRG]

On the list.

The two missing pics are now in the files for the next patch but here they are as well. If anyone finds any others missing please let me know

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

Unit number 62, 482 and 483 (SdKfz 7/1 FlaK and 7/2) all have a size of 3 and should have size 4 as the prime mover SdKfz 7 (number 79).

The SdKfz 6/2 (unit 324) has size 5. Actually SdKfz 6 was slightly smaller than SdKfz 7 and should maybe also have a size of 4.

SdKfz 6/2 and 7/2 also should have the same fire control, RF, ROF and survivability (the same gun and arrangement) - but I don't know, which are better. Possibly simpler ones, although in Hasegawa's 7/2 model there was, IIRC, a soldier with a rangefinder

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

Unit number 155 (Kfz 70 Protze) has size 3, 453 has 2 (regarding to the picture it`s the same truck (Krupp Protze), the different Kfz-numbers are only due to the different purpose as personnel carrier or towing guns).

I'm not sure, if class "utility vehicle" is proper - Kfz 69 was a light tractor for 37mm guns, while it isn't used this way (and, apart from Renault UE, all other utility vehicles are staff ones). The problem is, that AT guns are towed by "medium truck" or prime movers.

Now the only "light truck" is Krupp Protze, and the only mixed formation is 112: the Protze with artillery observer, which possibly would rather ride on something size of utility vehicle.

By the way, 997 Horch Kfz.70 should rather be "utility vehicle" (eventually light truck) - now it's medium truck. Besides, it should be available until the end (now 8/43)

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

PzKw IB (unit 461) has size 2, all the other Panzer I`s have size 3.

Unit number 507 (JPz IV/70V) has size 2 which maybe is right because of it`s low profile (height 1.85m) but then unit 503 and 504 (JPz IV/48) also should have size 2 (the had the same chassis).

As for PzKpfw I, they were smaller, than average light tanks - comparable to T-70 (size 2). JgPz I could also have 2 - low chassis, not too big superstructure.

JgPz IV was much bigger, so 3 is real-like minimum, considering, that Pz IV has 4, and more compact Hetzer has 3.

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

The Alkett version JPz IV/70A (unit 510) has an height of 2.35m and so correclty has a size of 3.

I'd give this one 4 - easily a size of a tank.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

First of all, congratulations to SPWW2 staff on a great work (I didn't realize, that OOB corrections were only a small part of it) And thanks for considering most suggestions.

Time to add another possible corrections in German OOB - mostly minor issues:

11, 850, 941 PzKw III J - it has picture 6 of early 3.7cm gun variant

62 SdKfz 7/1 FlaK - armour should not be all around - only crew's cab and gun shield,

69 SdKfz 223 (Fu) - they were produced until 2/44 and used presumably until the end (now 12/41)

70 SdKfz 231 (6) - first completed by 1933 (now from 9/37). MG was #02 7.92mm MG13

154 Raupenschlepper - a better (and official) name is just RSO, or Steyr RSO (Raupenschlepper means just "tracked tractor")

155 Kfz 70 Protze - it still has a picture of Kfz69 tractor, while Kfz 70 had a truck body. Could be 13106, although it's poor.

168 SdKfz 251/17 - might be actually SdKfz 11 Flak38, as picture indicates (there was no specific name - Jentz calls it 2cm Flak 38 auf Sfl. Zgkw.3t (Sdkfz 11)). Seems much more popular, than more expensive SdKfz-251/17 with all armoured body - at least 604 built. It was typical SP-flak, successor to SdKfz-10/5, erroneously regarded as variant of SdKfz-251/17 in older books, but it was built upon tractor chassis. It had armoured cab and gun shield only. Produced since 3/44 (now 9/42)

200 Sfl.Sturer Emil - according to a detailed chapter in Jentz's booklet, maximum speed was only 25 km/h (now 13) and ammo was 15 (now 18). It also had no AAMG as a standard (and it's not seen on photos), only SMGs. They were assigned to a combat unit (PzjgAbt 521) not earlier, than in 5/42 (now 2/42)

BTW: why not create "Dicker Max" as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_K_%28gp.Sfl.%29 ?

233-235 Ju 88P-1 and others - Ju 88P variants could have a new picture, with sticking out guns.

274 FJg LMG Grp - it has MG-34, while the picture seems MG-42

286 Panzerturm PzV - IMHO a better pic is 28508

303 PzKw 7TP(p) - it's a detail, but it rather had no SD

307 PzKw IVb -> PzKw IV B

337, 341, 349 Hs-123 - a detail, but a name with "-" is inconsistent with other planes

346 MG08/18 HMG Grp - AFAIK MG08/18 was air-cooled LMG (http://world.guns.ru/machine/de/mg-0-e.html ), while HMG on a heavy sled mount (a tetrapod? ) was just MG08. It concerns also several other units and weapon's name.

390 SdKfz 222 (1941-42) - vehicles produced from 1939 had 14.5mm thick front, so it can represent one.

391 SdKfz 222 (1944-46) - vehicles produced from 1942 had 30mm thick hull front and, according to some sources, 14.5mm thick turret

404 PzKw III B/D s - "s" seems redundant. First were delivered by 11/37 (now 1/39). Speed is quoted as 35 km/h (now 14)

423, 424 Adler Kfz 13, Kfz 14 (Fu) - produced from spring 1933 (now 1/30) (1933 according to newest Jentz; some sources say 1932). Kfz 14 should receive a new icon, unified with Kfz 13.

A gap in early armoured cars could be filled with SdKfz 3, used in 1930-36 http://www.panzerarmee.com/?page_id=1086 http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gepanze...mtw-sdkfz3.htm
It had no fixed armament, but I believe, that a LMG could be shot, at least from an open upper hatch.

425 PzSPw.201(i) - BMG would be useful only when driving backwards...

482 SdKfz 7/1 FlaK - produced since 4/40 (now 1/42) (Jentz - although there is no clear information, if they took part in French campaign however)

483 SdKfz 7/2 FlaK - it had armoured crew's cab and gun shield only. According to Jentz, armour was introduced in 1943 (now 1/42) (earlier we have unarmoured Sdkfz 6/2)

484 SdKfz 8 FlaK 18 - it had armoured crew's cab and gun shield.

[Pibwl]

Rest:

172 Kl PzBef Wg - I don't know, if it matters, but according to Jentz, Kl PzBef Wg were used as FO vehicles in artillery units only from 5/40 (now 1/35) - earlier they were command tanks (which probably were able to call artillery if they were in range...)

425 PzSPw.201(i), 541 PzSPw. L202(h) - a detail -> "PzSpw"

571 PzKw I A - picture should be eg. 30315 - now it's IB

572 PzKw I C - version pre 1943 - possibly it should have grey icon?

586 P204(f) 2.5cm - apart from police duties, P204s were also used as regular armoured cars in some SS divisions and 7th Pzdiv in 1941-42 (now it's class "CS inf.tank" - maybe it should be "colonial armoured car" rather, btw?). It would be worth to give it a grey icon.

587 P204(f) 5cm - the gun was apparently fixed forward, instead of turret

588 Flammwgn B2(f) - used in combat from 6/41 (now 11/41) (Jentz)

589, 721, 870 Geschutzwagn B2 - it had leFH-18, not leFH-16. Maybe one entry is redundant, for a vehicle produced in 16 units (possibly as "CS infantry tank" - little is known about usage, but they rather weren't fit to be used as anti-partisan vehicles, and served in France or Italy).

As for Geschutzwagn B2 and FCM - why until 12/42 they are "SP infantry gun" (like short-range sIG-33), and only after this date "SP artillery"?

595 Schnellboote - singular form is Schnellboot. But it was a torpedo boat, with weak armament - only from 1944 37mm gun was fitted, and I can't imagine wasting Schnelboot to engage ground targets . Probably more sense will be renaming it a Raumboot - universal coastal minesweeper http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...oat/index.html, http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=15619.0

610 Trager Bren 731 - I think it rather should have light MG34, than water-cooled MG08.

612 PzJ Bren(e) Rkt - maybe it also should have some bow MG? On some photos they have no MG, but there is at least one photo with MG-42
http://militarymodels.co.nz/tag/panz...ren-carrier-e/

719, 720 Geschutzwgn FCM - according to Jentz, produced in autumn 1942 (1/42), no longer reported as present in their unit after 1/44 (12/44).

733, 792 MG248(p) HMG - I don't know what is MG248(p). If it is Soviet Maxim (judging from a photo and caliber), then its designation and starting date of 792 is wrong. Poland ceased to use 7.62mm Maxim in 1920s, so they couldn't be captured in Poland (part were modified to use 7.9mm ammo, as wz.10/28, but before 1939 all were sold out abroad - possibly to Spain).

802, 803, 804 Schlepper UE - they were armoured from the top as well

833 SdKfz 231 (6) - MG was #02 7.92mm MG13

834 PzKw II A / B - designation of these pre-series vehicles with frame suspension was PzKw II a/b (exception of usage of small letters) - A/B was a production model, with final suspension.

844 SdKfz 222 - vehicles produced from 1942 had 30mm thick front

845 SdKfz 231 (8) - vehicles produced from 1942 had 30mm thick front


858 PzKw I C - picture seems "mini-Tiger" PzKw I F (there could be 30318)

859 Schlepper C7(p) - it wasn't armoured - made of ordinary steel (it seems not a numerous vehicle in German service, used mostly in rear - at least radio code should be changed)

871, 872 Sturmpanzer IV - as a standard, it had no AAMG.

932 PzKw 35R 731f - if we don't create another 35R (IMO there's no need to), maybe it should be OrPo class "CS Inf. tank" instead of "Infantry tank", and be available earlier. Now they belong to 1943-44 Ost units, while they were already used in 1942, eg. in 18th Police battalion.

937 PzKw 39H 735(f) - should have picture 27680 (long gun)

950 Aufklarer 38t - with class "support tankette" it belongs to Orp PzJg units, while it isn't any Panzerjager.

956, 957 RSO/PaK 40 - date 11/43 is too optimistic - first issued to units for evaluation not earlier, than in 1/44 (Jentz quotes earliest reports from 3/44). In fact, driver's cab wasn't armoured (3 mm ordinary steel) - only gun mask was armoured.
At least 28 rounds were stowed (now 25) - however Jentz in summary data wrote even 42 (it's slightly contradictory with a photo caption, which states 28 under a floor).

968 sIG38/2 (t) - apparently only one experimental vehicle was produced, so maybe radio class should be changed?

976 sIG38/1 (t) - as I wrote, this variant with a combat compartment at the rear was produced only from 12/43 (now 5/43). Jentz recognizes older and new model as "Gw 38 fur sIG33/1" and "Gw 38M fur sIG33/2", or Grille and "Grille ausf K" respectively. In short could be "Gw38M sIG33/2" or sIG33/2 or Grille K or whatever.


General note on AAMGs:
SdKfz-222, 234/1 and Aufklarer 38t might have secondary AAMG, like unit #162 SdKfz 250/9, instead of CMG (the same turret).
I believe, that SdKfz 221 and 223 should have AAMG instead of TMG - it was high angle weapon (+70deg), in convenient open turret mounting. Possibly the same for Kfz 13 (+65deg).
On the other hand, real capabilities of Stug external MGs against aircraft probably were not high (not big angle, and mounting in a fixed shield in early models).

That's all on Germany, unless I spot something else.

[AMX]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

733, 792 MG248(p) HMG - I don't know what is MG248(p). If it is Soviet Maxim (judging from a photo and caliber), then its designation and starting date of 792 is wrong. Poland ceased to use 7.62mm Maxim in 1920s, so they couldn't be captured in Poland (part were modified to use 7.9mm ammo, as wz.10/28, but before 1939 all were sold out abroad - possibly to Spain).

AFAIK, 248(p) were Polish MG 08.

Also:

842 Steyr ADGZ - should have a BMG.

[Pibwl]

Minor correction:

#152 17cm Batterie was first deployed to units in 8/41 (now 3/41), according to a Polish monograph article (combat debut was not earlier, than 10/41).

[sku]

017 PzKw 35(t)
018 PzKw 38 B(t)
019 PzKw 38 E(t)
280 PzKw 38 (t)
281 PzKw 35 (t)
969 PzKw 38 E(t)
They all have carry capacity of 13. I think 6 is better, as they all weren't that large to carry 13 people
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Panzer_38t.jpg

[BigDuke66]

Mh was that maybe done because there are just very few small units that would than fit on the tanks?
Normally the infantry would simply have been spread of more tanks but in the game a complete unit has to fit on it or it won't be transported.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by BigDuke66

Mh was that maybe done because there are just very few small units that would than fit on the tanks?
Normally the infantry would simply have been spread of more tanks but in the game a complete unit has to fit on it or it won't be transported.

This is almost certainly the case. There was a similar question asked a while ago about a jeep being able to transport 6 men (+ 2 crew!). The reason given was that it would otherwise not be able to carry the battalion HQ, and the game code doesn't let you spread the HQ over two jeeps.

So yes, it's probably not an error.