Guide: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]

[Bat/man]

I'll post out a build when I get home from work.

but essentially you want to build out the net warriors and the armored bolder throwers.

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I had actually forgotten why I no longer bothered posting my advice here until recently, but now each post I make seems to cause all those reasons why to flood back to me. Strange that

Agartha is a nation that is *often* rushed. (although the situaion is muddled now due to darkness). It has difficulty expanding and consistently ranks at or near the bottom in the hall of fame.

So all the theoretical effects of the longterm problems of a death scale is problem I'd be happy to have as Agartha.

The numbers you posted say the same thing: If a production / death build help me pick up two more territories the first year then a "growth" build - the trade-off is more than worth it.

[Boksi]

Thanks for all these replies! I'm really grateful for them, especially the ones that say 'This is stupid, don't do this'

I'll definitely take all this under consideration.

Originally Posted by llamabeast

This is correct. They will get some alternative way of laying down Darkness in chosen provinces, but it won't be via PD any more. PD Darkness appears to be significantly overpowered.

That's interesting. I guess I won't be emphasizing 20 PD in my strategy, then. How will it work, though? A normal summon that's immobile seems too limited, since you'd need labs everywhere for them. A normal summon that's mobile is too powerful to be anything but a late-game summon. A remote summon, whether or not it's mobile, might be hilarious but I'm not so sure it's a good idea.

Personally, I'd suggest a roundabout method - A normal summon that's mobile and can change shape into a second unit that isn't mobile and has #firstshape. The #firstshape turns it into an immobile unit that autocasts darkness. Possibly give that last unit a gold cost so you can't just slap it down wherever.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

I'll post out a build when I get home from work.

but essentially you want to build out the net warriors and the armored bolder throwers.

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Agartha is a nation that is *often* rushed. (although the situaion is muddled now due to darkness). It has difficulty expanding and consistently ranks at or near the bottom in the hall of fame.

So all the theoretical effects of the longterm problems of a death scale is problem I'd be happy to have as Agartha.

The numbers you posted say the same thing: If a production / death build help me pick up two more territories the first year then a "growth" build - the trade-off is more than worth it.

As you've already shown before, numbers are not your strong point are they. The income figures I gave were just for the cap income, but when you expand those to cover a ~15 province empire, or ~17 provinces with the *two* extra provinces you are implying you are able to take with Production scales and resource hungry troops over Trogs, then with Death 3 you are likely losing around 30-40 gold (guesstimate) per turn depending on your scales spread. And to keep up with that volume of gold loss you need to be gaining roughly an extra province every other turn, which is a tall order as EA Agartha. And the moment you can no longer gain new provinces you are likely to be in trouble due to the inevitable consequence of falling behind in infrastructure and mage recruitment due to lack of gold and falling income (amongst other problems). So taking two extra provinces in the first year just isn't going to make up for the Death 3 scales unless you can keep that level of province gain going every few turns. (oh and don't forget you need to find points for Luck 0 as well, as playing heavy Death without that is asking for all sorts of problems)

And Agartha does not have any difficulty expanding with Trogs in my experience (or if someone can't expand well with Trogs then they need more basic Dom lessons at expanding), and the HoF rankings for nation victories is meaningless. (and those who think they have meaning need to re-examine their view). But I do agree that EA Agartha are one of the weaker nations in EA, but taking Production and heavy Death scales, as your comments seem to imply, only makes that matter worse IMO. Although I accept Production/Death would likely help you survive an early rush better than Sloth and no Death would. But then I have trouble playing and planning from a PoV of "I'll design my Pretender to ensure I don't get rushed, but will sacrifice any realistic chance of winning the game to do so".

But I guess all will be revealed later with your Pretender design as to just how well you know the game, and the realities of playing in actual mid-high level MP games, as opposed to just playing theory-Dominions in fantasy land. (and even if your build is no good for playing it should still be good for a laugh, judging from some of your previous comments on this thread and others))



Oh and if anyone wants me for the long foreseeable future, such as if they want to know correct answers to their questions about the game rather than having to sift through the rubbish that regularly appears here, then they can find me, and others with similar reliable knowledge, on the Dom3mods forum. As this incident was the straw that did it for me, and I now won't be posting on this main forum or the mods forum here for quite some time (I'll still likely post on MP forum when I see admin issues come up when I'm passing).

As I can't deal with the stupid people here anymore, since I have no idea why some players think they know so much about the game, yet have no verified experience of playing in mid-high level games to back their views up, or any creditable history being shown that they know what they are talking about regarding their claimed knowledge and expertise at the game. As most of the people I see talking rubbish are also happily playing in newb dominated games, and I can't figure out why such players think they know so much if they still consider themselves eligible for newb games. These players can't have it both ways, and can't claim to be expert or newb depending on their mood.

It seems to me that in recent times some newbs think they can buy the game, play it for a week or two until they can beat the AI every time. Then play their first MP game, win their first fight in a MP newb game, and suddenly decide they are now an expert on every playing strategy in the game, a master of all the mechanics, and are an absolute authority on any and all complex game-balancing issues. I love seeing new players around, and like other vets I regularly help them out in several ways when I can, and am usually only too happy to help them. But arrogant newbs are doing my fecking head in, because their arrogance is based on nothing but the piss and wind generated by their own mistaken view that they have mastered the entire game completely within three months of playing. Some newbs need to get a good dose of reality.

And with that rant over I bid you all good night and God bless. (not as philosophical as Norfleet's exit, but then I'll likely be back should the flow of arrogant newbs and the rubbish they spout be stemmed. If that never happens then I guess this will be my last contribution here, as it's just untenable for me to share my knowledge and experience on these forums by having to put up with people talking rubbish in return)


ps. @ IRC folks - If there's a poll going on IRC regarding who's playing under Bat/Man's alias then put me down for Chris Pedersen. As he's the only other person I've ever seen dumb enough to even suggest using Domes of Corruption to boost magic scales. As everyone who plays the game outside of Dominions fantasy land knows how ludicrous that idea is. Coincidence?! Maybe, maybe not, but who else would possibly even suggest that as an idea???

[Bat/man]

In your obviously *vast* knowledge of Agartha, I wonder if you've actually tried a few games multiplayer with them.

Since you claim so much experience - please do list for me the multiplayer games you've played with Agartha - in your infinite wisdom. And I'd love to hear the ones you've won.

Because I, for one, would love to hear how you deal with the extremely high attrition rate that expansion with trogs requires.

I'd love to hear how you handle trog shuffling.

And you're right - I'm lousy with numbers. I forget does a trog have an 8 MR or a 9? I'd love to hear how you compensate for spending thousands of gold on units so that, when you are finished with the indie phase of the game fall prey to virtually any magic counter.

[Torin]

I dont know why people say this is a weak nation. I find it strong even with no mod.

The troops are probably the best for late game: no need to eat, high HPs ,siege bonus and amphibious. All what you need of your troops. The real damage is done by thugs and mages so

You have kickass earth mages. Capable of petrify thugs and evocations on troops.

You have the best SC pretender. The oracle: high HPs, immortal, enc=0.

Expand with troglodytes. Its easy, you just really need order to get the money.

Order+Sloth+Heat(coldblooded)+Growth+Luck(or not)+magic

Your oracles are lvl 3 priests so they can preach your dominion. No real need of high dominion.

You are not invincible but neither are the rest of the nations.

Ive used them in MP and they worked just fine. Ive survived an inasion by niefelheim (using Baalz niefel guide) and invaded Ermor before Ulm won by unanimous decision.

[Bat/man]

Oh and yeah lets see: 40 trogs 2000 gold. If they live call it 133 gold maintainence.

40 Boulder throwers: Oh, yeah, I forget, I'm bad with numbers- whats production cost 35? 1400 gold. Maintenance of what 46 per turn?

Whats that you say? The cost of the maintenance on the trogs exceeds the savings on the Growth scale?

No - that isn't so - the great calahan says so. So you're absolutely right Oh Great Calahan! IF you can expand to a huge empire with Agartha the costs of death scale dwarf the costs of maintenance.

Of course, thats exactly the problem every person reports with Agartha. How to handle the burdens of their huge empire.

[Torin]

you dont need 40 trogs for expanding. Maybe you need to practice against the AI to get the numbers right. 8 trogs can defeat most of the indys. The more the better though.
Remember they can trample even cavalry.

Later you can use de 10 gold infantry. I find the more expensive ancient ones really a waste of money.

[Bat/man]

Originally Posted by Torin

you dont need 40 trogs for expanding. Maybe you need to practice against the AI to get the numbers right. 8 trogs can defeat most of the indys. The more the better though.
Remember they can trample even cavalry.

Later you can use de 10 gold infantry. I find the more expensive ancient ones really a waste of money.

Torin,

I'm not saying you need 40 trogs to expand. You're right that 8 trogs can take many indy provinces. But the list of things that can kill 8 trogs are mindblowingly large.

Undead. Cavalry. Markatas. Barbarians. Longbowman. Blood henge druids. Sometimes wolf tribes.

If you use trogs as your expansion vehicle, and if you make an expansion team every other turn = 6*8= 48 trogs.

And I'm also not saying don't use trogs. But I am saying that under CBM, the boulder throwers get AOE on their boulders which is a huge upgrade.

[Soyweiser]

Bat/man, should tone it down a bit. You have less wins than Calahan, and you constantly show that you clearly don't understand the game that much. (And you also constantly appeal to wins you should have, which are not logged or registered, Calahan has a way better understanding than you have from the game. And due to the way Calahan plays, he has little time for playing games).

From our personal messaging (regarding the usage of dome of corruption to boost your province scales to m3):

You cannot cast returning with a S1 mage. Returning requires a gem. To boost a s1 mage to s2 you need a gem. The max number of gems a s1 mage can use, you guessed it 1. So your trick doesn't even work.

And I really hope you aren't thinking about using the turkey mages to mesmerize the horrors. Vs mr 18/20 that isn't going to work.

And domkill isn't a flavour du jour, if you knew anything it has even decreased. Because the knifes have been made artifacts nowadays.

Luck 3 on EA Mitclan : http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=33753 baalz suggests you use it. (you know, synergy with turmoil).

You should really tone down. Or we could make the pm even more public. It will only humiliate you further .

[Torin]

No need to be rough, Soyweiser

The point with the indies. Is that they will not "fire at big enemy monsters" or "fire at rearmost" they always "fire at closest" so arrows are not a problem really. Its even better to fight against arrows because most of them will hit the ground unlike HtH attacks.