MA Eriu

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by bbz

My point is if you remove the false fetters effect from the siddhe lord its gonna be harder for them to ammas great numbers of always hitting thugs. Also there is not even need to remove it if you make it singe target rathr than aoe, this way high defence units will be a suitable counter, and you might be a bit more incined to go for a fire bless.

I do agree that the false fetters effect should be made to take effect on a hit, just like was done with the vine whip, and I mentioned that in the CBM thread.

Originally Posted by bbz

I am trying to think of something that can stop them but I cannot. Even big communions will fail due to how easy it is for Eriu to cast rain of stones.

I had assumed you were talking about 1-2 thugs (for which you wouldn't send a large communion), not thug backed armies, but in any case rain of stones isn't easy to cast. It was already often a death sentence for human HP level casters but now that it requires two gems to cast and thus can't be cast using an E random bean sidhe with just earth boots it's become a very expensive endeavor since you need two boosters to cast it in the first round (and getting it off the first round before the attacker can buff is the whole point).



Thugging is my favorite part of the game and I spend more resources on it than is wise and I've faced a lot of effective counters so I'll throw a few ideas out there.

First, look at the thug's gear. Either the player will have spent a lot of gems to avoid weaknesses (like I tend to do) or they'll have spent less and there will be vulnerabilities. No equipment to boost MR? A perfect target for smiting if you've got H3s (really, all you need are enough blockers and you're almost guaranteed a kill). Astral magic is the same thing - mind burn, paralyze, soul slay, etc. - all very effective if the thug doesn't have high MR, and given enough time even if they do have high MR. This is the great thing about MR magic - there is no full immunity and given enough rolls one of them will succeed. The only thing better is magic that doesn't allow a resistance roll. If you can pull off drain life that's pretty much a guaranteed win.

Second, look at the scripting. TNN/Eriu thugs can cast a lot of buffs - more than they can script in five turns actually. In one of my most fun matches my opponent was Machaka. My thugs could get full elemental immunity when buffed but they needed time to do it. He didn't give me that time. He cast haste on fire snakes and black bow equipped archers and I had two rounds before they were on me. I needed to cast bless first but what next, air shield or elemental fortitude? This cat and mouse game was huge fun but when he broke into blood magic the issue was decisively decided in his favor. Also, when it comes to scripting remember you may need to use "attack one turn" to get in range for your spells.

Blood magic kills glamoured thugs. Want an exercise in futility? Try sending thugs after Jotun late game. But you don't need high level blood magic. Research blood 1 and cast blood burst. Research a little more blood and then send flying troops to hit the thug pre-buff. Since they also have magic attacks they can knock off mistform even if you do get it cast.

Btw, even if you don't have high quality flying troops like blood magic does you can still send flyers to disrupt the thug's buff routine, giving your higher quality troops and mages time to close before the thug can finish buffing.

Also, these are not morale 30 SCs. Fear can route them quite effectively and if they're off raiding and don't have an escape province a routed thug is a dead thug.

Then of course there's the bane of glamoured thugs, mind hunt. If you're playing Arco then you just send out forces to retake your provinces post-raid. Does the glamoured nation have spectres covering every province? He'd better.

Anyway, I can think of more things later if you want. My basic point is as much as I like thugging/raiding it's not a game winning strategy. If that's all you've got then you'll trade provinces back and forth until your thugs are killed and then the nation with a real army will crush you. The key thing about the changes to Eriu is they now can put together a stronger real army (at least up though the midgame as mentioned earlier).

[bbz]

Originally Posted by Shangrila00

And evocations work fine against them. A Sidhe Lord with a frost brand can buff up immunity to lightning, cold, and poison, but not all of them due to fatigue and limited scripting slots on a already heavily buff dependent thug. Mix multiple of the above elements to pop their mistform, at which point they die fast. They also cannot buff immunity to fire, just the 50% from elemental fortitude, reduced to 25% if you cast barkskin. Mistform doesn't work if you don't have good protection underlying it, so you need either barkskin or shell out 10 gems for better armor. Again evocations don't need to kill them, just pop their mistform at which point they die quickly to normal attacks. For communion nations, spamming the astral MR negates spells works, not awesomely or anything, but well enough. Their big advantage though is that with range 100 and precision 100, they are not countered by the national mist spells or storm dropping precision. Incidently, hiding in the back row can 1) be countered with scripting if you keep doing it, and 2) does not necessarily stop stellar cascades. Astral mages without other paths like casting stellar cascades even after the script runs out. They will also cast stellar cascades if you are immune to what elemental spells they can cast and you don't have a good number of nonimmune chaff. If you do have chaff, once they die, your thugs will flee from the hp limit, and die if they are behind enemy lines as glamour thugs tend to be. Sure, rain of stones is an option, though not particularly easy since your best earth mages have no feet, but CBM has pushed that to Evocation 8. It's not as if your research is good enough to make even Evo 7 in good time, and you can forge neither lanterns nor mentors.

first off you don't need lanterns or mentors you have rectuit everywhere mages with 6 research for 220 gold(that is 7 research with magic 1 wich everyone takes anyways)
I was just thinking Elemental Armour that and elemenatl fortitude gives you protection from 3 of the spells. You can forge one for one of your lords to act as a decoy at the front casting spells(most evocations have limited range) so you have your mages at the back cast elemental fortitude and then after the enemies script ends, attack.
I have to try the major earth bless but i'm not sure if you need it. with reinvig 2 you net 1 fatigue from an action. So thats not too much.

I don't think that you need the regeneration if anything goes through mistform strong enough to pop it then the lord is dead anyways. (regen won't help) And there aren't many chaff units that can hit through 29 defence consistently especially if you are clearing 1-2 squares per turn and , they won't be able to surround you Also the aoe effect keeps 3 units in chains so that is 3 less units to warry about. So if you get 12 units around you(unlikely) then you might get hit from 9 of them 9x2 -18 defence (and keep in mind your thugs are size 3 so you can have 2 at the same square so the defence reduction is only -9 thats still 20 defence and there arent many chaff units that go through that and even if they do you have to be hit 14 times. I agree that masses of markatas might work havent tried that(aswell as other size 1 units) for size 2 units I doubt it.

[bbz]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I do agree that the false fetters effect should be made to take effect on a hit, just like was done with the vine whip, and I mentioned that in the CBM thread.

I had assumed you were talking about 1-2 thugs (for which you wouldn't send a large communion), not thug backed armies, but in any case rain of stones isn't easy to cast. It was already often a death sentence for human HP level casters but now that it requires two gems to cast and thus can't be cast using an E random bean sidhe with just earth boots it's become a very expensive endeavor since you need two boosters to cast it in the first round (and getting it off the first round before the attacker can buff is the whole point).



Thugging is my favorite part of the game and I spend more resources on it than is wise and I've faced a lot of effective counters so I'll throw a few ideas out there.

First, look at the thug's gear. Either the player will have spent a lot of gems to avoid weaknesses (like I tend to do) or they'll have spent less and there will be vulnerabilities. No equipment to boost MR? A perfect target for smiting if you've got H3s (really, all you need are enough blockers and you're almost guaranteed a kill). Astral magic is the same thing - mind burn, paralyze, soul slay, etc. - all very effective if the thug doesn't have high MR, and given enough time even if they do have high MR. This is the great thing about MR magic - there is no full immunity and given enough rolls one of them will succeed. The only thing better is magic that doesn't allow a resistance roll. If you can pull off drain life that's pretty much a guaranteed win.

Second, look at the scripting. TNN/Eriu thugs can cast a lot of buffs - more than they can script in five turns actually. In one of my most fun matches my opponent was Machaka. My thugs could get full elemental immunity when buffed but they needed time to do it. He didn't give me that time. He cast haste on fire snakes and black bow equipped archers and I had two rounds before they were on me. I needed to cast bless first but what next, air shield or elemental fortitude? This cat and mouse game was huge fun but when he broke into blood magic the issue was decisively decided in his favor. Also, when it comes to scripting remember you may need to use "attack one turn" to get in range for your spells.

Blood magic kills glamoured thugs. Want an exercise in futility? Try sending thugs after Jotun late game. But you don't need high level blood magic. Research blood 1 and cast blood burst. Research a little more blood and then send flying troops to hit the thug pre-buff. Since they also have magic attacks they can knock off mistform even if you do get it cast.

Btw, even if you don't have high quality flying troops like blood magic does you can still send flyers to disrupt the thug's buff routine, giving your higher quality troops and mages time to close before the thug can finish buffing.

Also, these are not morale 30 SCs. Fear can route them quite effectively and if they're off raiding and don't have an escape province a routed thug is a dead thug.

Then of course there's the bane of glamoured thugs, mind hunt. If you're playing Arco then you just send out forces to retake your provinces post-raid. Does the glamoured nation have spectres covering every province? He'd better.

Anyway, I can think of more things later if you want. My basic point is as much as I like thugging/raiding it's not a game winning strategy. If that's all you've got then you'll trade provinces back and forth until your thugs are killed and then the nation with a real army will crush you. The key thing about the changes to Eriu is they now can put together a stronger real army (at least up though the midgame as mentioned earlier).

I will take your word for that. The thing is my experience is from a duel I had (and playing another one now) and they seemed brutally powerful. Its quite dufferent for a proper MP game so I believe you that thugging is not a game winning strategy. But wuldnt having great anti-thughs and at the same time thugs work for a real army?

I also understand about attack move mages but in a normal battle you cannot do that because they will get chopped by the normal units.
I also agree about blood that can kill off eriu, and mind hunt.

My point also was that having glamoured units you are most likely to be the defender(since you will be taking lightly defended provinces) and then defending them when it feels safe enough. being the defender + PD counters the fly in strategy.

Anyways I do agree that late game they are not as strong and I agree about the other points that you made.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by bbz

first off you don't need lanterns or mentors you have rectuit everywhere mages with 6 research for 220 gold(that is 7 research with magic 1 wich everyone takes anyways)

Keep in mind this isn't good research. You could buy two indie shaman for the same cost (they are also sacred) that would yield 8 RP with magic 1.

Originally Posted by bbz

I was just thinking Elemental Armour that and elemenatl fortitude gives you protection from 3 of the spells. You can forge one for one of your lords to act as a decoy at the front casting spells(most evocations have limited range) so you have your mages at the back cast elemental fortitude and then after the enemies script ends, attack.
I have to try the major earth bless but i'm not sure if you need it. with reinvig 2 you net 1 fatigue from an action. So thats not too much.

If you can find indie mages to forge the elemental armor or trade for it. And unless you can work out a deal with Ulm or Van it won't have a forge discount. Also, it has high encumbrance which will add to your fatigue from buffing. You want your reinvig to be higher than your encumbrance to recover from buffing fatigue unless you plan on having additional mages along to cast soothing song.

Originally Posted by bbz

I don't think that you need the regeneration if anything goes through mistform strong enough to pop it then the lord is dead anyways. (regen won't help) And there aren't many chaff units that can hit through 29 defence consistently especially if you are clearing 1-2 squares per turn and , they won't be able to surround you Also the aoe effect keeps 3 units in chains so that is 3 less units to warry about. So if you get 12 units around you(unlikely) then you might get hit from 9 of them 9x2 -18 defence (and keep in mind your thugs are size 3 so you can have 2 at the same square so the defence reduction is only -9 thats still 20 defence and there arent many chaff units that go through that and even if they do you have to be hit 14 times. I agree that masses of markatas might work havent tried that(aswell as other size 1 units) for size 2 units I doubt it.

Even if mistform doesn't pop you'll still take 1 HP of damage from each hit. Regen keeps those from adding up and eventually killing you.

Also, I think focusing on chaff and low quality troops is not optimal - use high quality troops and magic to kill glamoured thugs. Although skelly spam works quite well since you just tie up the thug long enough for him to autoroute.

[bbz]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Keep in mind this isn't good research. You could buy two indie shaman for the same cost (they are also sacred) that would yield 8 RP with magic 1.


If you can find indie mages to forge the elemental armor or trade for it. And unless you can work out a deal with Ulm or Van it won't have a forge discount. Also, it has high encumbrance which will add to your fatigue from buffing. You want your reinvig to be higher than your encumbrance to recover from buffing fatigue unless you plan on having additional mages along to cast soothing song.

Well I guess I am just used to nations with bad research so 7 for 220 gold seemed good ish. its quite good early game to start your research but later on as you said there are more efficient ways.

About soothing song yea you can use it to drop fatigue at the last round or as you said have other mages. Also for some reason if you put elemental armour on sidhe lord their mele encumbrance doesnt change it remains 3 (which sounds like a bug)(it does make their spell casting fatigue 11 though).
But I agree its gonna be a pain to get one but thats why I said just use one thug with full resistance at the front as a decoy. The rest will have only 50% but the opponents mages will be fatigued from casting spells at the close target so you won't get hit too much and mistform will negate the first hit anyways.


Edit: I saw your comment in the CBM thread, thats my thinking aswell and that was the whole/ main point of the thread I don't like things that don't have counter(always hits) So I guess thats enough for this. I'd agree that otherwise Eriu is fine ish as a strong mid game nation.

P.s I was playing around trying to cast mists of the hidden path and then set many N3 mages on attack/ song of power(with the Idea of turning all your enemies into halks)
Also I think that spell should have some sort of counter even if its hard to cast properly(be it MR or any other way to resist the spell)

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by bbz

I will take your word for that. The thing is my experience is from a duel I had (and playing another one now) and they seemed brutally powerful. Its quite dufferent for a proper MP game so I believe you that thugging is not a game winning strategy. But wuldnt having great anti-thughs and at the same time thugs work for a real army?

I also understand about attack move mages but in a normal battle you cannot do that because they will get chopped by the normal units.
I also agree about blood that can kill off eriu, and mind hunt.

My point also was that having glamoured units you are most likely to be the defender(since you will be taking lightly defended provinces) and then defending them when it feels safe enough. being the defender + PD counters the fly in strategy.

Ok, I see. My response was focused on countering raiding thugs not thug backed armies. As I mentioned, I think Eriu now has a very strong midgame and can form powerful armies. Countering that will depend on the situation. What nation were you playing? It might be easier to come up with suggestions if we know that (if you want to mess up glamoured thugs Mictlan with a death bless should do the job nicely).

Originally Posted by bbz

About soothing song yea you can use it to drop fatigue at the last round or as you said have other mages. Also for some reason if you put elemental armour on sidhe lord their mele encumbrance doesnt change it remains 3 (which sounds like a bug)(it does make their spell casting fatigue 11 though).

No, that's because they're mounted. The armor won't increase their melee encumbrance but like you said it will increase their spellcasting encumbrance, which means their fatigue will be higher post-buff and will increase their chances of receiving a critical hit.

[bbz]

I didnt know that mele fatigue doesnt increase when you are on a horse
I was thinking of how to stop them as Fomoria. Air doesnt work since they can easily get immunity. Morrigans scare the **** out of the thugs so I guess they work + wailing winds.
Otherwise about battle magic shadow blast didnt seem to be effective. Thugs niether.
Massed construction/bows worked allrighting unless sidhe lords buff with arrow fend.
Thugged Kings didnt work either. I guess if you give them high protection and set to cast hand of death might work. P.s Ghost grip might work as well. But I was wondering about army vs army situation.

[Shardphoenix]

shadow blast didnt seem to be effective

It`s bolt spell. It gets stopped by air shield. Try good old skellyspam instead.

I was thinking of how to stop them as Fomoria.

MA Fomoria? What am I reading?

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by bbz

About soothing song yea you can use it to drop fatigue at the last round or as you said have other mages. Also for some reason if you put elemental armour on sidhe lord their mele encumbrance doesnt change it remains 3 (which sounds like a bug)(it does make their spell casting fatigue 11 though).
But I agree its gonna be a pain to get one but thats why I said just use one thug with full resistance at the front as a decoy. The rest will have only 50% but the opponents mages will be fatigued from casting spells at the close target so you won't get hit too much and mistform will negate the first hit anyways.

1) Soothing Song costs more fatigue than it relieves. It works if you have a bunch of guys spamming overlapping Songs, or if you don't care about the fatigue of the guy casting it, ie an indy shaman who's not going to be fighting. The more you bunch up to take advantage of that though, the more likely the enemy spell casting AI will decide it's a great target to drop a thunderstrike on.

2) Spells can't really be decoyed like archers can. If your guy upfront is immune, the mages will switch to casting something else, like save or dies, or stellar cascades. There are also a good number of offensive spells with enough range to hit the back row from near the enemy front. This includes basics like thunderstrike and a bunch that have ranges that scale based on caster strength. Nether bolt and banefire among them, and you might have seen that LP on something awful where one player got his far back army hammered by Acid Rain. You can't do anything to protect against any of those either.

As I mentioned before, the main way to decoy mages is to present better targets, ie chaff. Except that's the last thing a thug army needs, since they will rout your thugs by dying.

Edit: I saw your comment in the CBM thread, thats my thinking aswell and that was the whole/ main point of the thread I don't like things that don't have counter(always hits) So I guess thats enough for this. I'd agree that otherwise Eriu is fine ish as a strong mid game nation.

Did you see my response to this on the last page?

P.s I was playing around trying to cast mists of the hidden path and then set many N3 mages on attack/ song of power(with the Idea of turning all your enemies into halks)
Also I think that spell should have some sort of counter even if its hard to cast properly(be it MR or any other way to resist the spell)

If you are suicide bombing Tuatha, it better not be counterable. That's a 390g cap only mage. Bean Sidhe can only get N2, and they'll lose any thisle mace you give them when they turn into a bird.

[bbz]

Originally Posted by Shardphoenix

MA Fomoria? What am I reading?

well say for a singe age game