Making non Magic national commanders more worthwhile

[Rookierookie]

What you could do rather easily is lower the leadership value for all mages significantly (or even give them noleader), and give mundane commanders Standard and Supply abilities (of various levels).

[brxbrx]

Seeing as how most mages don't have a leadership value higher than 10, I don't see how that would change anything.
Nations with mages that double as good generals are actually meant to have their armies led by mages (Mictlan, Marignon).

[PriestyMan]

So most nations buy indie commanders to lead troops... even if you dont, the most common script for a non-mage commander is holdx5, stay behind troops, which is oh so useful

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Rookierookie

What you could do rather easily is lower the leadership value for all mages significantly (or even give them noleader), and give mundane commanders Standard and Supply abilities (of various levels).

This is a terrible idea. #noleader also disables magic and undead leadership.

[Olm]

I think there are definitely traits on non magic commanders that make them worthwhile. Speed is the first that comes to my mind, as I play lot of MA Man.
In CBM you have the Knight Commander of Avalon with Map Move 3. Nobody can lead an Army of Knights of Avalon as efficient as him. An independant leader would miss one mapmove and the forest survival.

And if you want to do something else than Stay behind troops you have to kit your commanders to be thugs. Give mentioned Knight Commander a Black Steel Full Plate (or a Marble Armor) a Frost Brand, a Vine Shield and a PoL and let him attack rearmost enemy together with his 20 or so superfast Knights. That squad will really deliver a punch!

Or just give him a Thunder Bow. Its cheap and useful.

I don't use lots of them, but I have always 3-5 to lead my knights. And I would even recruit them if they were cap only.

[Squirrelloid]

There are independent commanders who have mm3. The ~55g light cavalry one comes to mind. Which should be reasonably common in MA.

That's way too many gems on a regular pud on a horse though. At best you'd give him a frost brand if you were going to send him into melee. Even fully kitted he's not that hard to kill, so you'd want to minimize your investment.

With the amount of gear you're throwing on him, summoning a bane for 4d and throwing a brand and shield on him would be cheaper, more effective, and have mm3. Of course, at that point you can leave the squad at home.

And most national commanders aren't any better than indie commanders at using a magic bow. The few who have better than 10 precision aren't worth giving up the mage buy for the +1 precision. And they're more expensive than just buying indie scouts to hand bows to.

Cap-only non-mage non-priest commanders ever worth recruiting in dom3: 0

Cap-only priest non-mage commanders ever worth recruiting in dom3: I can think of 1, and 'worth recruiting' is questionable. Fortunately that nation has no cap-only mages. (EA Ermor, H3 mildly tempting. Emphasis on mildly)

Recruit-anywhere national non-mage commanders worth recruiting: There's some national priests that pass muster. And spies and assassins. Some guys with special abilities like Siege Engineers. But guys who actually lead troops... uh... LA TC Khans maybe? Possibly Caelum if you're actually using regular troops and you can't spare a mage commander.

[Olm]

Ah, I guess this noob might learn something in this thread

The horse tribe chief still lacks forest survival, so for 25 bucks I get a much tougher guy with forest survival, recuperation and who is a level 1 priest.
I've not played many MP games, but is money that tight? For MA Man?

Leading troops: The Castellan is 10 gp cheaper than the usual indy commander, with leadership 80 instead of 40. Are you implying you never have any fort where you have no money for a mage, so you build one of them? I usually have lots of forts as MA Man. (In fact I don't buy indy commanders nor Castellans but let my mothers with leadership 55 lead those troops most of the time, but thats another point).

Now outfitting thugs, perhaps I can learn most in that field: I am fitting out Lord Wardens similarly to what I mentioned above. You think thats to much on a fragile human commander? I use them as raiding thugs and with some success, not only against noobs. Advantage is they are stealthy.
I don't understand all that about the bane. What makes him so good? You say with a brand and a shield I could leave the squad at home. From stats I would say 10 Knights of Avalon with nothing else would wipe the floor with that bane.
I just checked one of my recent battles with a bane. I admit he had no equipment other than a PoL. He died upon first contact with my knights. I'd guess not more than 4 actually fighting him.
I don't see why they are so high rated as thugs. If I compare them to my Lord Wardens the big advantage is I need no boots of the messenger on them. Other than that they are somewhat stronger and have the chill aura. But I can't use them as raiders, cause they are not stealthy. So why does everybody love banes as thugs?

[Squirrelloid]

First of all, for raiding you aren't going to be fighting 10 knights, but whatever random PD is. A bane with brand and shield is plenty sufficient for doing so.

Walking and non-stealthy is perfectly acceptable for at least some of your thugs, because they won't be able to protect everywhere with an army. That's why thugs are cheap and spammable - you're trying to avoid serious resistance and simply take lots of provinces.

If you need more mobility, boots of flying gives it to you and the total gem cost is still less than what you're putting on your wardens. Boots of quickness are better if you don't need the mobility.

Banelords are a step up and make good anti-thugs as well. I've watched banelords clobber Vanjarls frequently.

Appropriate shields are vine or gold, although eye shield works for strictly anti-thug duties and there are a couple of others that would be acceptable. But almost any shield can do the job if its just raiding PD.

Bane advantages:
-good armor
-decent hp (20, and more than twice that for banelords)
-0 enc
-chill aura
-CR100/PR100 built in

In addition to their virtues as raiders, they also gear up well for anti-thugging or army support. FR100 can be achieved by using fire brands instead of frost and a dragon helm. SR100 can be achieved via ring or copper plate. Lucky pendant can always be added. 2 logical boot choices exist which increase their effectiveness substantially. None of this is necessary for raiding though, and even in an army support role you'd want to expend as few gems as necessary to achieve your goals.

tldr; people love banes because they're cheap for what they can do.

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Castellans might be cheaper than indie commanders, but you usually build forts until you can spend all your money on mages every turn. And by the time you can't build a mage in every fort, you're no longer using troops the Castellan can lead. Regular leadership loses usefulness as the game goes on for most nations.

[Starbelly Geek]

For MA Man, actually, CBM Knights are one of the three recruitable priests. Their temples are cheap, so you put them everywhere. It's not necessarily unlikely that you'll have a province with a fort and a temple but no lab.
I'm more likely to get the Knight Commanders than the friars or castellans, especially in a fort without a lab. Use the Wardens (CBM) as stealthy commander/preachers and the Knight Commanders as troop leaders/preachers/temple builders.

They aren't great thugs, though, except against the AI. Well, maybe the Warden to raid, especially since MA Man has to work to get into death.

[Olm]

How do you raid with non stealthy units? You'd have to attack front provinces, which are heavily defended. Flying surely helps, but even then I can hunt the raiders down with a handfull of 10 Knight armies. If stealthy, you can just disappear. Even cloudtrapezing or teleporting doesn't get you. Only way for the opponent is seeking arrow, mind hunt and the like. Or guessing the next target. For me stealth is invaluable for raiding. The Lord Warden needs some more gems in equipment, but IMO then he is far superior as raider.
As an army support role the bane needs definitely more equipment, or he dies fast. So the Lord warden even closes the gap in that role.

Perhaps I am wrong with my forts, but I also build forts for protection and for income. And Baalz guide to MA Man says build lots of forts, I hold to that.
Btw: Lots of forts make raiding rather difficult for the opponent.

I always read endgame troops consist of summons and the like and no more regular troops. But what exactly is it, that troops consist of? I did not come to an endgame yet. What will replace my Knights? Or is it only chaff in the endgame, because Evo kills all troops too fast? Is it only chaff, mages, thugs and SC's?

Btw: Thanks for the advice. Though I am not convinced of the bane yet (probably need to see a coulpe in action used properly) theres plenty for me to think about.