Fixes for the iraqi OOB

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for BMD, this is a complicated matter... I don't say it should be changed, but just for information: according to Russian sources, BMD-1, 2 and 3 can carry only 5 troops (incl. commander) + driver + gunner. I can attach a cross-section of BMD-1, which shows three seats behind a turret and two beside a driver (operating machine guns). So it seems, that Russian BMD section in reality has only 5 men - and BTR-D in that case carries two sections (10 men).

Regards
Michal

Carry capacity is somewhat an abstract affair. For example in real life you could split an infantry squad between two armored Humwees, in the game it is not possible.

[Mobhack]

And it gets fuzzy when the commander can stay with the vehicle or dismount with the section. The game has no such option to stay/leave.

As far as the game is concerned APC 123 is commanded by leader Bloggs, and the dismounts are commanded by leader Smith. (No Smith if the squad is mounted, and an Y/N to dismount Smith if the team gets out. Who commands if Smith stays with the vehicle?. What if there are >1 dismount teams?. If he dismounts, does the vehicle lose use of weapon slot #3?. etc)

It would be terribly difficult to implement such a mechanism in any meaningful way even for human players to manage, let alone have the poor AI decide what to do.

In OOB design, it is entirely up to the OOB designer to decide whether the element's commander is counted in the vehicle crew total, the dismounts, or both.

Its a company/Battalion level game after all. Micro-details like where exactly Smith is can be left to the first-person view squad level shooter type video games.

Cheers
Andy

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Carry capacity is somewhat an abstract affair. For example in real life you could split an infantry squad between two armored Humwees, in the game it is not possible.

Yes, but this is rather not the case with APC's, for practical reasons. Besides, it would make some sense with 10-men squads, carried by two IFVs, not with 6-men ones. Even in that case, a squad would probably consist of two relatively independent 5-men sections, each with RPG and LMG.

But, as I've said, I'm not insisting it should be changed - it's just for information (and decision).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

As far as the game is concerned APC 123 is commanded by leader Bloggs, and the dismounts are commanded by leader Smith....

Fortunately, with BMD it is simple, because a commander has to dismount (in other case, it would be 4 troops fighting). The vehicle remains with driver and gunner.

As a point of interest, I have a Polish military script about BMP platoon usage (it is probably similar to other BMP users, based upon Soviet pattern):

There are three BMP in a platoon, each with 10 men. In one of them, a platoon commander travels, and in each one, a squad commander. Those, who dismount, are: three 7-men squads, the platoon commander and a sniper (I don't know however, if he's included in one squad or on a platoon level, but I'll try to ask). There remain three drivers, three gunners, and platoon commander's assistant, who commands the vehicles.

BTW: it's worth to correct a structure of Polish units this way (now they have 9-8-8 squads, should be 8-7-7 + sniper), but I'm reluctant to start a new thread, not to annoy Don, who's already overloaded with details from me...

Edit: PS - in Czechoslovak army it was roughly the same, but web pages mention about 29 men in BMP platoon, not 30 - maybe without a sniper.

Edit2: the sniper is included into one squad.

Regards
Michal Derela

[DRG]

If you want to know what the "standard" will be for units of Russian origin look at the Russian OOB. When it conflicts with other nations I change the other nations with very few exceptions ( I have already corrected a couple of minor inconsistencies in the Russian OOB this year but these were all fixed a couple years back within the limitations of the game code )

If you want to debate those values I can point you to the Russians who provided the information and you can debate the issue with them and get back to me then I'll decide if it's worthwhile.

In some cases those vehicles carry a specialist unit, in others it's a couple of scout sections that cannot be reduced to 5 from 6 men and in the end it really all matters about this . .....||.... . much at the end of a battle.

....however, in this case I will review the issue again when I get to it but as I already noted in another thread there is little chance now that every "error" report issued in this latest feeding frenzy will be addressed this time around.



Don

[Pibwl]

To make it clear: only BMD issue concerns the Russian oob directly.
As for BMP, I can only guess, that not all the vehicle's capacity (2+9) was actually used, as it was in case of Poland and Czechoslovakia, but it was only for information. Moreover, I have a sketch of East German usage in a book, which shows 9 men only seated in BMP ("als Fahrzeug der mot. Schuetzengruppe" - I don't know German terminology well).

As a point of interest, I attach cross-sections of BMD-1.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Unit 551 BM-14 SP has a picture of BM-21 - proper is 29336 or 65362.

Michal

[Pibwl]

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - icon should be 2341

260 BRDM-2 Malutka - icon should be 2321

Michal

[Pibwl]

042 ZSU-57-2 - according to a Polish article [nTW 4/2006], first were bought in early 1970s (now: 1/65).

[Marcello]

Unit 963 EC-635
Armament in slot 2 changed to an additional weapon n. 173 12.7mm MG. Ammo increased as in slot 1

It now appears from pictures that the gun pods are actually carried in pairs. Besides it has occurred to me that the 22 rockets pod might be for dedicated gunships rather than a light armed/recon helo. So far only gunpods and possibly ATGMs have been displayed.

Weapon n. 178 30mm GSh-30
Currently unused it could be overwritten with weapon n.187 4x 80mm S-8 from russian OOB


Unit 962 Mi-17C

-Armament in slots 1-2 changed to weapon n. 35 7.62mm PKMS MMG
-Armament in slots 3-4 changed to the aforementioned S-8 rockets, 10 HE round per slot and the AP rounds deleted.

The above seems the usual armament fit from pictures