Mod: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.05)

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Something I heard elsewhere which seemed worth considering. The tartans problem would be handled, but still fun, if each tartan was unique.

It would not. The existence of only unique SC summons would make them tremendously overpowered because there'd be no counter SCs. The whole game would come down to who could take possession of the most SC summons (assuming approximately equally skilled opponents).

Basically, absolutely limited quantities never made anything balanced. They only make the option more powerful.

There needs to be non-unique SC summons available to everyone, or no SC summons at all (which means no elemental royalty either). But if its going to be balanced, they should also be appropriately costed, and not dirt cheap like Tartarians currently are. I'll probably have increased their cost more than I have so far by the time I'm through. (Currently looking at 30d even with shattered soul and afflictions.)

[pyg]

Well I've always been impressed by the balance of squirrels... put olympic gymnasts to shame. Couple of questions: If this is a fork of CBM, is there any goal/hope of integration with CBM? It seems so far you are only considering boosting some of the underpowered nations, but what about bringing down some of the overpowered nations?

[Burnsaber]

If you want to replace Monstra, perhaps you could use the dracolich sprite and make a tartarian dragon? Although it would likely have some of the same problems as the monstra (lack of slots mostly), they could be solved by allowing the dragon to shapechange into a bog mummy or something.

Also, about EA Agartha. Why do they use bronze? They are an underground nation with a good connection to the element earth. The fact that they haven't discovered iron is stupid. It would be a trivial job to recolor their armor grey and it would improve the horrible infantry (and perhaps make it useful when combined with some stat changes).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

If you want to replace Monstra, perhaps you could use the dracolich sprite and make a tartarian dragon? Although it would likely have some of the same problems as the monstra (lack of slots mostly), they could be solved by allowing the dragon to shapechange into a bog mummy or something.

The lack of slots is definitely a problem. Also, the limited magic (I can't imagine a Dragon doing much better than a Monstrum in terms of magic paths).

Also, about EA Agartha. Why do they use bronze? They are an underground nation with a good connection to the element earth. The fact that they haven't discovered iron is stupid. It would be a trivial job to recolor their armor grey and it would improve the horrible infantry (and perhaps make it useful when combined with some stat changes).

Good point. We do have an iron-clad normal-sized agarthan even (from MA!), so making some changes should be easy. Although historically bronze is actually better than iron for a number of purposes - the real problem is that tine supplies were too limited, and iron was thus cheaper.

You know, not only should they have found iron, but they should have abundant access to elements that are pretty rare before modern extraction techniques. Aluminum and Titanium are the ones that come to mind, not to mention better access to Tin. In the EA, at least, Agartha should have access to armor and weapons superior to anything ever produced by the later Ulms, at least in terms of metallurgy.

I suppose part of the issue here is how exactly we view Agartha. The thematic material from which Agartha (actually Agartta in most instances) is derived posits a hollow earth, so there is no molten core or anything like that. The game treatment seems to add them to a very much solid earth where they are burrowers rather than occupiers of a hollow interior. At which point I suppose we can claim Agartha's theme is whatever we make it.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

The lack of slots is definitely a problem. Also, the limited magic (I can't imagine a Dragon doing much better than a Monstrum in terms of magic paths).

I assume you mean thematically? You can of course assign whatever magic you want to it. The same applies to the Monstrum, who I actually like and think could be boosted to be useful. Some possibilities: add a misc slot, add another set of linked randoms, grant one or more magical attacks, give regeneration. Really all kinds of options depending on whether you want to boost combat potential or spell casting ability.

[13lackGu4rd]

if you truly want to achieve balance I think you should also address the commonly banned nations, mainly Hinnom, Ashdod and to a lesser extent LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh.

also for your underpowered nations, you have Eriu and Man there, why not TNN? also, MA Man but no LA Man? is LA Man that much better, if at all? also what about EA and to a lesser extent MA Vanheim? and perhaps EA Abysia too? not too huge of a change needed for them, but should you really reach a balance those too would probably be needed to slightly look into.

and well, Imho such a balance mod cannot truly achieve balance until those high end astral spells(angels, monkey uniques, Chayot, Seraph, etc) finally get their costs reduced now that pearls are no more. this would perhaps bring back MA Marignon into a solid nation choice instead of a KotC bless rush or be impotent sort, and will of course give a much needed boost to the monkey nations, but mainly Kailasa that doesn't have access to Lanka's evil blood summons.

and 1 last thing, a lot of players mention/complain that blood is too powerful, especially pure blood nations as Mictlan and Lanka but also others.

[Squirrelloid]

Valerius:
Monstrum is perfectly useful as is, but its not something you want to GoR, and you want to be able to summon it predictably. When I've had the luxury of a squadron of Monstrum, I've been quite happy with them. Which is why I'm moving them to their own summon - so you *can* have the luxury of a squadron of them at your choosing. (Basically, its useless if you can't mass it, and its on a vastly different power scale than the rest of the tarts - it makes sense to split it out).

BG:
-LA Rlyeh is not OP, if anything its a little weak.
-LA Ermor does not seem to be OP to me. People just hate playing with it because it makes its lands worthless. MA Ermor probably has a better claim to being OP, but I'm not even convinced of that.

-TNN is better than Eriu by a significant amount. Thus they aren't a priority yet.
-If I have any clever ideas for Hinnom, Ashdod, or Nieflheim, I might do something. Clearly just increasing the price of their recruitable SCs hasn't been sufficient, which probably means its insufficiently clever.
-LA Man is a perfectly fine nation with good magic diversity (and paths), interesting special abilities, and is tailor-made for over-taxing as a strategy. If anything, the only change that needs to be made is to its national gem income.
-I could look at the Vanheims. As I recall its MA that is the weak one.
-EA Abysia is not a priority because I don't have any clever ideas on where to even start. Quite possibly, the problem is that fire is too easy to counter, which is a much more general problem. It wouldn't be very thematic to make them not be about fire... even I can't really justify that.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with changing themes as necessary. But that means I need a thematic idea I'm embracing to replace the old one).

I will be happy to look at national summons (Dai Oni is already on the plate because its overcosted). Rudra aren't getting cheaper though, sorry. They're well-costed at 55 pearls.

(Lanka's blood summons are probably undercosted. If nothing else Davana are far too cheap. Mictlan's blood summons are almost certainly undercosted. If some people who are true afficianos of blood nations could make some comment about typical #s of slaves harvested/turn in early, mid, and late game, that would help. Most of my experience with blood is via nations who are dabbling in it, so i don't have a good benchmark for 'typical' behavior in an MP game).

[13lackGu4rd]

I know your views on LA R'lyeh and Ermor, hence I said "to a lesser extent" because while you and some others don't view them as OP, they're still banned from the majority of MP games. it certainly has something to do with their destructive dominion effect but than MA C'tis' Miasma is also a similar effect, and nobody seems to have a problem with MA C'tis. therefore I don't warrant a large change needed there, but at least something... for R'lyeh 1 good move would be to delete the aquatic spawns that are just so trouble some and choke your upkeep without a good way to get rid of them. yes, that's a buff if you were wondering, cause yes, LA R'lyeh's micromanagement hell is even worse than LA Ermor's, and that says a lot...

well, don't have that much experience with TNN or LA Man but it just seems like they aren't nations that are usually doing well in MPs, at least those that I've seen around here. for EA Abysia, I don't think you should change their theme, just allow easier access to the alternative(B+S) make it a bit stronger on EA, similar to what MA Abysia has, or something along those lines.

MA Vanheim has Skinshifters, so that's a huge boon already. the problem is that their magic is still so limited, unlike Midgard who is a very fine nation. they also have the ridiculously overpriced Vans, and with the glamour nerf they're no longer the F9W9 heaven they used to be, now most MA Vanheim players use Skinshifters instead. EA Vanheim has neither Vans nor Skinshifters. both are considered as blood nations but have terrible inefficient blood hunters, way too high a cost for B1, and it's not like there's an easily summoned/indy B1 mage that you can use instead, so its either sticking to those overpriced Vanjarls or those even more ridiculously expensive Vandarrots so at least you don't need 3 Vanjarls hunting in each province. there's also the option of eventually using Vampire Lord hunters, but you need a lot of blood slaves for that to begin with, and either way it's terrible cost inefficient as well...

yes, Rudras are still very good at 55 pearls, but they outshine all the alternative summons by so much that those almost never get to see play. so maybe lowering the others' prices to make a choice between the still very very strong yet expensive Rudras to its cheaper alternatives for quality vs quantity.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

it certainly has something to do with their destructive dominion effect but than MA C'tis' Miasma is also a similar effect, and nobody seems to have a problem with MA C'tis.

Difference there is that MA C'Tis's effect can be removed by conquering them. The population loss from LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh is effectively permanent.

for EA Abysia, I don't think you should change their theme, just allow easier access to the alternative(B+S) make it a bit stronger on EA, similar to what MA Abysia has, or something along those lines.

I personally think that warlock apprentices should be recruit anywhere for both MA and EA Abysia. It would make a huge, huge difference in their long-term viability.

[chrispedersen]

Squirrel I inluded fixes for
agartha, abysia, jomon, yomi, man, arco, machaka in my balance mod