Pretenders: Rainbow vs SC

[Finalgenesis]

I actually tried a wyrm SC out when I first played. It got creamed pretty hard. Now that I know the combat mechanics better I guess awe is almost mandatory on a early SC? Thats a lot of points sunk into a SC in exchange for summon / forge / site finds >.<

[rdonj]

A wyrm needs awe, yes. It's also not a bad idea to give it a splash of magic to make it useful a bit longer, but if you take one with no magic it's certainly not very painful to lose it.

Also just to be clear, when I said "SC pretenders are more useful..." I didn't mean period, I meant comparatively to other times you'd use an SC pretender I have personally only once ever taken a (dormant bless) SC pretender in an MP game (and I lost because I was playing TNN and had no magic diversity when late game rolled around, heh. On the other hand, that SC pretender is basically the entire reason I survived the early game against Niefelheim). Most of my MP pretenders are... blessers and rainbows :P I honestly hate SC pretenders that do not have healing or immortality, because without one of those I feel they are marginalized too easily.

[Finalgenesis]

I must agree! I was feeling like I overlooked something in my analysis since 90% of the game thread, guides, brainstorm all use SC chasis. Wyrm, clops, gorgon, various titan chasis ...etc. I guess it is that important for MP games.

It would be ironic to site find all my lands then get steamrolled by a Hv bless SC pretender nation. I suppose if they know your going rainbow then your land must have lots of juicy revealed sites, coupled with the fact you have no early SC would make you mighty tempting...

I think I may have to go SC in my MP games now that I analyze it abit more...

[13lackGu4rd]

as others have said, pretender choices are a lot more complex than what you've done in this poll. moreover, you can't really set the specific nations aside, as the nation you play plays a major roll in your pretender selection. for example, nations with horrible early expansion such as EA Agartha, UW nations(barring MA Oceania), etc just scream for an awake SC pretender to allow them to set off the ground. others like Mictlan, Lanka, etc scream for a bless strategy due to their awesome sacreds but otherwise very unimpressive national armies. others like Sauromatia, Vanheim(MA+Midgard less for EA), etc have awesome national armies to expand with, thus can greatly benefit from having strong scales or perhaps the magic diversity of a Rainbow. there is also the high Astral pretender for late game, mainly the Oracle, which can be used both in a bless(S9+?) or in a high scales strategy.

also, among SCs, there are the short term type(such as the Wyrm and that under water Octopus) who have terrible item slots, hence lose a lot of their effectiveness in mid-late game. others like the Cyclops, GK, PoD, etc have all the normal slots so they can function as mid-late game SCs with good items on them. also, some bless pretenders such as a F9+? imprisoned Moloch(for Mictlan and other nations that benefit greatly from F9 bless) are mainly a bless chassis but once awake they too can function as mid-late game SCs with items.

there are others of course, such as a scale based Titan pretender, gem generating pretender(Great Enchantress, Mother of Rivers, Lord of Rebirth, etc), the Forge Lord, etc.

thus there can never really be a favorite pretender, as it greatly depends on which nation you play, also the game settings, other players, etc can and should factor into yout pretender selection.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Hhhhmmmm, high dominion on a Cyclops is almost mandatory if you want him to be any use as an early SC (first year). If you try taking Indy's solo with a naked Cyclops without Awe then you'll almost instantly get a dead Cyclops. Even with a Const 0 shield+sword it's no certainty

But then I know you know this already Squirrelloid, which makes your comment seem even weirder to me

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

thus there can never really be a favorite pretender, as it greatly depends on which nation you play, also the game settings, other players, etc can and should factor into yout pretender selection.

I do have a fav, rainbow chasis! Even for EA Mictlan or other bless nation I went with rainbow chasis (F9?4?4?3).

I know what your saying and I could agree that it IS nation specific, but some players tend to have a prefered chasis where they prefer, they may use something else as it synergize better with the specific nation, but they probably have a preference.

It sounds like your preference is no preference and strictly flexible, unlike me who can't deviate from a rainbow under any circumstances... Maybe MP will cure me of that though.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

E9 gives him enough protection he can expand against a lot of things. I wouldn't go running into any HC...

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

[chrispedersen]

Wyrm, Moloch, Prince of Death, Cyclops, Ghost King, Colossal Fetish, Gaiea, Carrion Dragon, Immortal Oracle, Both Imperial Generals, Both Bulls, Lord of Winter, Virtue, Kraken, varior Rlyeh's, can all be used as SC's. Lord of Desert Plague, the destroyer.

Some others you've left out:

Forge Lord, Immortal Glyph, Blood Fountain, Divine Emperor (CBM only), Oracle, ...

[nordlys]

SP is all about having infinite options to play with, therefore Rainbow. You can always wish for SC pretenders later on

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Protection can be 20 or 30, doesn't matter that much as with just average defence and no Awe to prevent the attacks, the RNG will ensure enough hits get through to ruin your day. It's not all about actually losing the Cyclops, as it only takes one or two injuries for it to be sidelined.

IIRC, someone ran tests a while back with protection 40, and those showed that the protection mechanics are a bit bugged at the higher levels (as in hits get through when they shouldn't). This may have been fixed in recent patches, but I doubt it somehow.

I know protection interacts weirdly with damage, because the RNG is bugged. But try it before you say it doesn't work.

An E9 cyclops has 29 protection. He'll also average more than 100hp with dominion bonus. With no gear he can handle non-archer infantry. Figure you expand turn 2, move home turn 3, and that gives you time to forge a weapon and a shield to equip him for expanding again on turn 4 and onwards. Assuming you don't run into something egregious like someone with a skull talisman, you'll expand perfectly fine.

I gained 1 affliction (-4 str, oh noes) in year 1, and that was just random bad luck. I expanded on turns 2, 4-11. I used an enchanted shield and sword because I grabbed an astral power at random. I made sure to target provinces that were only standard infantry with or without archers OR tribal groups. (No barbarians, no heavy cavalry, light cavalry would probably be ok). Actually, the parry 7 on enchanted shield is pretty respectable, not sure how much of a difference that made against archers.

Once you get Conj3, you're also net-neutral on fatigue after SEP, which makes you immune to critical hits. You should research it sometime in year 1.

I mean, would you rather have awe? Sure. But the Cyclops *can* go without.