The New Jomon?

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by legowarrior

Talking about MA.

Huh come again?

It seems to me everyone in this thread is talking about LA Jomon. The thread title that you yourself created has Jomon in it, and most posts in this thread make mention of the underwater recruitable units that are exclusive to LA Jomon.

You yourself talk about....

Originally Posted by legowarrior

It seems that you can only reliable get 2 Astral, 2 Nature, or 2 Earth from the units you can purchase on land.

Making a distinct reference to land recruitable units (so implying water recruitables exist). And MA Shinuyama doesn't get access to water recruitiable units or Astral mages from the land roster (not that MA Shinuyame has a water roster). But LA Jomon has both the things you talk about. So again, you are the one talking about Late Age and LA Jomon.

So to respond to rdonj's remark with the reply "Talking about MA" seems to me to be you forgetting yourself what you were actually wanting to talk about

If you really did want to talk about Middle Age though, and MA Jomon in particular (so Shinuyama), then you did a great job of tricking everyone into talking about LA Jomon instead

[legowarrior]

Ah, sorry for the confusion. When I was making a reference to MA era for the Jomon, I was talking about the possibility for a Mod Nation. One that would be a rival to the Shinuyama, but led by the Dragon Court. (There are two conversations going on at once on this thread)

As to the Late Era Jomon, the issue that I am discussing is opportunity cost that you pay. If you want access to the water units right away, you need to have an Awake SC, because none of your troops are going down there with you anytime soon. This weakens your scales and magic a lot I believe, so you can be sure that you won't be fielding much of an army, or have much of a Bless Strategy.
If you want either of those (although a bless strategy seems a little weak for the Jomon) you probably won't be hitting the sea until you get Sea Trolls. By that time, who knows what is going on down there.

Personally, the coolest improve that have come to the Jomon are their new Holy Spells. They are really cool, and it might make it worth it to have a Spellcaster as your prophet just to get access to all of them.

[legowarrior]

Why do the Jomon get Fire Crystals? That is a definitely oversight. A sea bound culture such as their's should have water crystals.
More the Air Crystal to the Mountain of the Mystics, get rid of the Fire Crystal, and put a Water Crystal in the Temple of the Pure War. Easy!

[chrispedersen]

My comments on LA-Jomon.

Turmoil-3 Prod 3 Heat 3, Death 3, Luck 3, Magic 3
Awake Wyrm, E6 Dom 4.

Like a turtle returning to the sea - head for the water, asap.
Heat(3) because your income (etc) will almost be unaffected by the heat scale from your water provinces.

As jomon, you are going to have small numbers of expensive units, and lots of forts. Decreasing supplies (heat, death) make siegeing painful your opponents. Additionally you have a lot of summons which provide supply bonuses. You have no old mages, which is a plus.


If used with care, attacking high dominion provinces, your wyrm with a 16 regen and a 17 prot can solo most provinces by himself. Which is good. Cuz your land troops suck. Personally, I view Cav as the only worthwhile unit - tho hard to mass.

The earth-6 is good for conjuration as well. The awake pretender is critical for getting jomon's expansion going. This build has a little too few $$ for my tastes - and the Jomon hero's are nothing to write home about.

You're counting on necromancer luck events to get you access to death - so land provinces are necessary.

Build your O- mages both at least through turn 10, to minimize the chance of bad events.

Consider building your other mainline mage and prophetizing him, in order to benefit from the fivefold path spells. Helpful if he has nature path. Having an o mage build a crystal matrix, so your prophet can benefit a communion with skillful path is useful. Consider it, but don't do it if you're close to water.


You can also try a Dom-9 Death 4 pretender, which is *much* more fragile, but gives you a leg up on end game.

The kuijin (?) summons is well worth the 18 gems. I like the shrimp warriors over shark warriors- and crabs generals make amusing thugs.

You need to get in water asap - and then build a fort, lab, and temple in water as fast as you can.

To this end, conquer the water province with your pretender. Turn1:Start a fort, build a cmd.
Turn2:Build another cmdr, have 1rst commander continue fort. Pretender builds lab.(why you need some path on the pretender)
Turn3: Prophetize 2nd cmdr. Pretender goes off conquering.
Turn4: 2nd Commander builds temple.
Turn5: Start building your mages - and start looking for free forts.

Ruyko's are OK.. but way too expensive to get more than 1-2.

If LA-Ryleh is in the game.. you're going to need higher dominion (and a lotta luck).

[thejeff]

What happens to your plan if Jomon starts with someone between them and the nearest water?
It seems a bad idea to focus your early game around something you may not even have access to.

[chrispedersen]

you're hosed, duh.

But you're hosed as jomon generally. My build doesn't hose you more or less than usual =).


Jomon is probably best with fairly aery maps, and with with ready access to water.

[Wrana]

Not that I like Jomon much, or have much experience with them, but it seems that Chris's build depends too much on luck of non-scales variety. And the variant with Dom-4 Wyrm I'd say a way to suicide. Though I agree about Heat - it protects your dragon princes and doesn't affect your troops as much as many opponents.
Actually, Jomon may work with awakened rainbow researcher who will open up many possibilities for nation's mages quite soon and allow to produce many of the nation's summons. This will also take you into water as soon as you will get about 10 Kappa (vanilla game, or 1st Kappa thug in CBM).
Or you can go with SC - Wyrm or sea goddess. Or even Cyclops, actually, with Construction 1st research priority he will be able to bring you into sea by the start of the 2nd year for sure...

[legowarrior]

Anyone notice that with high Turmoil and Luck you get a lot of instances of Ronin coming to your bidding? I wish I had the stats for them at hand, although I think they are just unarmored Samurai.

[legowarrior]

New discover in my SP game. Contact Yama-no-kami, a cool looking spell, even if the unit can't move off his mountain (he summons creatures to your domain)must be cast on mountain terrain. Further more, it doesn't work on border mountain terrain, which makes it useless on the random map I'm using. That sucks the big one if you ask me.

[chrispedersen]

yes. the yama is why I like the E on the wyrm.
And yes, you have to remember to turn off border mountains when you make random maps. Hoses a lot of nations.

I seem to like the mori for five fold path reasons, in a communion.