Byzantine Pythium - hype/brainstorming thread

[BigDaddy]

The Swiss Guard as in the Pope's army? That is the longest standing army still in existence, so, yes, not really mercenaries.

I think the army of the Roman empire may have stood longer, but I do not know. The Swiss Guard is certainly on of the longest standing armies to ever exist.

So, I suppose if you take that position into account those Emeral Guards which are one to one better than most countries best command unit is OK. Still, there is a balance problem to that... it follows through the serpent cataphract.

[rdonj]

I agree with squirrel, having one attack is probably not enough. It's really hard to make one, non-massable shot count. Something like 2 or 3 would be much more workable. I suppose it also depends on how expensive they are and how effective they are in melee... if they're something like principes with flamethrowers it might just barely be workable.

[Festin]

Theurgs are actually quite thematic for Byzantium-style nation. I always thought of them as of a fantasy parallel to the neoplatonic "theurgy" mysticism which was mainstream in Eastern Roman Empire in time of Julian the Apostate.

[Belac]

Flamethrowers could be units armed with an item that casts Burning Hands. They could be reasonable-cost, non-cap commanders, if that would make the programming easier.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

The Swiss Guard as in the Pope's army? That is the longest standing army still in existence, so, yes, not really mercenaries.

Part of this is a shift in meaning of the term. The swiss mercenary companies wouldn't fight against the King of France and his armies, as a rule, because he was such a frequent user of swiss pike companies - indeed, some of them were in permanent french employ.

By the standards of the middle ages, anyone who fought for money was a mercenary. I assure you the swiss guard gets payed, and I assure you there is continuous history from the swiss mercenaries of the middle ages to the swiss guard in the vatican today. They are certainly derived from a mercenary company, and are arguably still technically mercenary. (What else would you call foreign nationals who perform military service for pay?)

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Part of this is a shift in meaning of the term. The swiss mercenary companies wouldn't fight against the King of France and his armies, as a rule, because he was such a frequent user of swiss pike companies - indeed, some of them were in permanent french employ.

By the standards of the middle ages, anyone who fought for money was a mercenary. I assure you the swiss guard gets payed, and I assure you there is continuous history from the swiss mercenaries of the middle ages to the swiss guard in the vatican today. They are certainly derived from a mercenary company, and are arguably still technically mercenary. (What else would you call foreign nationals who perform military service for pay?)

They are Catholic men who are serving the Pontiff, their earthly king.

[kennydicke]

digression: kennydicke, varyags have *nothing* to do with the swiss guard, who derived from the swiss pikemen mercenaries. Technically, the swiss guard is the last swiss mercenary troop in existence, although they are hardly mercenary now.

You are absolutely correct on all counts squirreloid; I merely meant the hiring of 'barbarian' mercenaries as a traditional carryover from when the seat of the church moved locations from the Eastern to Western Roman Empire. I meant no offense in making them out to be the same people.

Carry on.

[Digress]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by Digress

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous. I hire this guy because he's so awesome. The Serpent Lord is almost as awesomely skilled, but rides a serpent that is really tough and keeps fighting (but you lose it after the battle), a light lance, and the benefits of being mounted. I already hire assassins to carry bows from time to time, but to give them yet another great commander unit is it getting silly, even w/o the Serpent Lord, the Emerald Lord still rocks hard.

*Yes, the lizard king does rock, but he needs equipment, and, while size 2, he isn't actually human.

[Burnsaber]

Okay, my current unit line up:

New Units
-> Rus Horse Archers (forest/waste survivals, fast, composite bows*)
-> Heavy Cavalry - Can't remember the accurate name right now
(somewhat along the power level on basic knights)
-> Varangian Guard - (forest survival, two-handed axes, elite stats, cap only)
-> Flamethrowers* - (see below, cap only)

* not historically accurate, but whatever

Old units that go away
Serpent Catapharacts
Gladiators
Hydra Hatchlings
Hydras

New Commanders & Changes

-> Ambassador - (Spy)
-> Varangian Guard Captain - (Sailing, very good stats, cap only)
-> Imperial Alchemist - F1W1 (110% F/W/E), minor researchbonus (1), cap only
-> Theurg Artisan (iconographers, sclulptors, architects, etc..) - 1? H1 (100% F/A/W/S), forgebonus 10, minor researchmalus (-1) (they like to create, not sit in front of books), cap only
-> Theurgs - not old any more, magic changed to S2 2? H2 (F/A/W - linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands), gold cost increase
-> Arch Theurgs - multi-heroes, only slightly old, magic changed to S3 3? H3 (F/A/W -> linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands)

Old commanders that go away
-> Serpent Lord
-> Hydra Tamer
-> Arch Theurgs
-> Scout

New Spells
-> Angel summons to competetive no-clam prices
-> H1 communion slave (note that this will not work on pure H1 priests, only those who have an actual magic pick -> this piece of data is from my Holy War modding days)
-> H2 communion master
-> F2W1 "Greek Fire" combat spell, likely a fireball that leaves a small "Fire Cloud" behind.
-> Awesome H5,6,7 and 8 combat spells


As for the flamethrowers, I've gotten a nifty idea. I'll sort of make like them like "reverse salamanders" - good fire AoE attack, but they would cost a lot of resources instead of gold and have massive negative fire resistance. I'll probably ditch the ranged attack, since it's unlikely that they could fire with those cylinders very far.

Originally Posted by Festin

Theurgs are actually quite thematic for Byzantium-style nation. I always thought of them as of a fantasy parallel to the neoplatonic "theurgy" mysticism which was mainstream in Eastern Roman Empire in time of Julian the Apostate.

Yeah, they are. That's why I'm keeping them pretty much intact. Arch Theurgs, though, just are absolutely annoying because you have to recruit dozens of them (they are just so good) and then micro to keep them alive. Old age is not a balancing factor, it's just a pain in the butt.

I'm going to make Arch Theurgs multi-heroes and slighly reduce the magical power of Theurgs (but make them not old). Then I'll give the Byzantium Pythium a bunch of national holy spells (a H5 spell, a H6 spell, H7 spell and a ridicilious H8 spell). It's pretty obvious that those spells can only be really reached through communion and PoS -> You have priestly communions.

Originally Posted by Digress

I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

Well, the problem is that we don't have that many tools to make seductors/corruptor type units. Seduce is clearly only meant for units that are so lustfull and beautiful that they can make someone switch sides (not appropiate for a dude in a robe). The corruption that one of the Lords of Hell has is clearly also out of the question for a recruitable, besides I can't give it to a unit without also giving the #demon tag.