CBM MA Races Rankings - Voted by the community!

[BigDaddy]

I know not every nation can be a powerhouse in every time, but I fail to see how Pythiums power curve falls off in the late game... I mean MAYBE if you wait until everyone else's late game, but Pythium ramps up so fast... maybe I'm just confused, and 90 is not bad...

And whats with the nations with power troops being low in early game? Ulm, Oceana, Pangea, Machaka? How is Ulm weak in the early game? Weak as in if it rushes it'll get clockwork horrors out in large numbers first at the end of early game? I seriously have no idea how it can be bottom tier early game... your first troops can take almost anything...

Oceana has recruitable everywhere recuperating light cavalry with 22 hps. They rock hard when you get em, and get better with time. Pangea, see Oceana. These experienced units are hard to remote evo away, and seem to last quite into later game, especially with buffs.

OK, so that's probably too much for someone who really hasn't played much MP, but that's my initial reaction.

[KissBlade]

... Who the hell were those "experts" you spoke to ...? Pythium having a lower rank than Ermor?? Rlyeh having a weak early game? Mictlan having a subpar endgame??

[Zeldor]

I am not commenting here, because I'd have to make my own list from scratch, it's too much work. And it does not really matter much.

I can partly agree on Machaka vs Ermor - spiders own vestals. Webs to be more precise.

[thejeff]

KissBlade: I'm not enough of an expert to comment on most of the lategame rankings, but this is a CBM ranking list. Clams have been removed in the latest version.

In general, remember this whole thread was a request for comments, not the definitive ratings. He explicitly stated that many rankings were supplied to start discussion.
I assume he was looking for suggested rankings with support rather than just general attacks on the initial list. Where would you put those nations?

[BigDaddy]

I still think Pythium is the strongest overall MA nation. No matter what you set out to do ritually, you end up with powerful if incidental communed combat spells. Hydras, assassin, legionaires, AND emeral guards? That's frickin ridiculous. With the centrality of the pearl and the extra gem... You've got to be kidding me. Oh, and you can summon Seraphs too...

Or maybe I'm just kidding. What they really need is elephants to even be competitive.

And they don't have a thug, unless you count 3 emerald lords with a couple item each or some powerful magery.

I feel as if not giving them a gifts from heaven caster is also a horrible shame.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I suppose if false fetters are so amazing then Man, with actually good troops, rates even better at early game than listed. And TC. And everyone else with air magic - because all of them have better troops than Eriu. Even Caelums troops are better than firbolg.

Man has good troops at 11gold 10 resources comparable? Damn, I must have missed those! What are those troops called again? What are the TC troops called with comparable stats to firbolg who cost 11 gold and 10 resources, as I seem to have missed those too?!

*When* did you see Eriu field massed firbolgs supported by airmages? What game was that in? The Eriu I see from game to game field Daine Sidhes and get steamrolled, and people wonder why.

Man fields their HP7 Prot0 old age crones to cast false fetters? Right yeah, I would like to see that

Spiders vs. S9W9 SVs backed up by longdead horsemen - betting SVs win that on equal gold, not to mention are much easier to mass.

Spiders vs. F9W9 Eagle Warriors - clear victor eagle warriors. Its not even close.

By the time you field a shadow vestal army backed by longdead horsemen, I have Fire Drakes supported by Shadow Bolt and fire evocations. The vestals make a nice crispy sound when their 9 HP burn to the massive Evocation 1 Fire Darts (not to mention the slightly more research requiring fire evocations). You know what the funny thing about shadow bolts is? Undead are immune to it. You know who the AI targets with shadowbolts? Oh yeah, those non-undead commanders you brought along.

F9W9 Eagle warriors vs Fire Drakes, let me snigger a bit if you think the feathery fellows stand a chance in the flames of hell (sic!). If it is the very early game, when the fire drakes are not available yet, then yes Eagle warriors would be a problem for Machaka, but that would be quite a horrible map to play on if you get overrun by Mictlan on turn 3 (it can happen though, which would truly suck no matter which nation you were playing).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

I am not commenting here, because I'd have to make my own list from scratch, it's too much work. And it does not really matter much.

I can partly agree on Machaka vs Ermor - spiders own vestals. Webs to be more precise.

Don't webs fail 75% of the time against ethereal like all other attacks?

And aren't they subject to twist fate?

I mean, I haven't seen the combat, but I can't imagine you'd get many webs to stick against a SV at anywhere near equal gold.

(And this is assuming the Ermor player lets you shoot at the SVs instead of making you blow your webbing on longdead horsemen).

[BigDaddy]

FYI: Spiders get 4ammo range8 webs each.


Javelins kill Jaguar warriors just fine. Legionaires are a superior defensive, though not offensive, option. Emerald guards won't die very fast in front while the velites throw them. Just my experience.

[BigDaddy]

sorry.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Man has good troops at 11gold 10 resources comparable? Damn, I must have missed those! What are those troops called again? What are the TC troops called with comparable stats to firbolg who cost 11 gold and 10 resources, as I seem to have missed those too?!

*When* did you see Eriu field massed firbolgs supported by airmages? What game was that in? The Eriu I see from game to game field Daine Sidhes and get steamrolled, and people wonder why.

Man fields their HP7 Prot0 old age crones to cast false fetters? Right yeah, I would like to see that

At the same cost? Of course not. But Man takes Pr3, something Eriu would never do, so the higher resource cost is acceptable. Not to mention its Knights of Avalon are quite good, not just acceptable assuming they have mage support. Even their regular knights are pretty good, and the wardens are worth a bless now that they're recruit anywhere.

Heck, most of the time I see Eriu load up on sloth.

Mothers can also be A2, fwiw. But Man doesn't even need false fetters to have a pretty decent early game. But it certainly could use them if it entered a really early war.

By the time you field a shadow vestal army backed by longdead horsemen, I have Fire Drakes supported by Shadow Bolt and fire evocations. The vestals make a nice crispy sound when their 9 HP burn to the massive Evocation 1 Fire Darts (not to mention the slightly more research requiring fire evocations). You know what the funny thing about shadow bolts is? Undead are immune to it. You know who the AI targets with shadowbolts? Oh yeah, those non-undead commanders you brought along.

F9W9 Eagle warriors vs Fire Drakes, let me snigger a bit if you think the feathery fellows stand a chance in the flames of hell (sic!). If it is the very early game, when the fire drakes are not available yet, then yes Eagle warriors would be a problem for Machaka, but that would be quite a horrible map to play on if you get overrun by Mictlan on turn 3 (it can happen though, which would truly suck no matter which nation you were playing).

Can we stop with the moving targets? We're talking about early game, not mid game. You're lucky if you have any fire drakes in the early game. Or Shadowbolts.

Ermor can easily field an army of 20+SVs with 30+ longdead horsemen by turn 5 and still have an expansion army or two attacking indies. That's not even hard, since they're kicking out ~10SVs/trn and reanimating starting on turn 2. On turn 5 you might have conjuration 1.

Funny thing about fire darts - they make a precision roll against SV defense, assuming they even hit a relevant square. W9S9 SVs, lets think about that for a moment. Def20 before xp stars. What's your precision again? 15 iff you buffed eagle eyes? (If you even have eagle eyes yet, since apparently you're rushing conjuration for those fire drakes in year 1) And if by some miracle you do hit a SV, twist fate saves them the first time, and fire darts *might* kill a SV if it scores a second hit on the same one. Of course, by that time your position is getting swarmed by quickened SVs.

Funny thing about shadow bolts - they aren't range 100. They aren't even range 50. Why would ermor place its 'non-undead commander' closer than the backfield?

Similarly, early game, you don't have firedrakes against Mictlan's EWs.