Australian tank squadrons

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Read your last, it's easy enough to do! This is JUST an update and NO response is required. I actually heard back from the ADF PAO. An MR4 James O'Callaghan who's offered further asst. if needed, based on his recommendation have forwarded his reply and my inquiry with the ADF's War Museum and Calvary & Armored Museum. Will keep you posted.
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This was the Thread I was thinking about it does confirm the order of 59 M1A1 tanks and support units from an email recieved by Mr. Mick Martin. Answers will be posted to TDRs Thread.

Regards,
Pat

[TDR]

Small note and your choice on how you use it:


2007 doctrine documents:

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC

Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

A slight varience is

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 APC
- 1 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 ACP

Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

Earlier documentation ( Leopard based units)
I don’t have the date on this document about 2004

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x Leopard AS1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC

Sqn Trp x 4
- 3 x Leopard AS1

[TDR]

Just to add to your complete confusion on the Australian Tank Sqn structures over time.

Now these are based on official doctrine structures. Ref dates where I have them.



Official doctrine structure re Armour Sqn,

Doc dated 1970,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x APC (read M113)
- 1 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1971,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1975,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 4 x MBT


Doc dated 1981,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


Doc dated 1984,
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


Doc dated 1996
Sqn Hq
- 2 x MBT (Centurion)
- 2 x LRV (read M113)
Sqn Tp x 4
- 3 x MBT


documentation (Leopard based units). I don’t have the date on this document about 2004

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x Leopard AS1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC
Sqn Trp x 4
- 3 x Leopard AS1

2007 doctrine documents:

Sqn Structure

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS3 or AS4 APC
Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

A slight varience is (second source)

Sqn HQ
- 2 x M1A1
- 2 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 APC
- 1 x M113 AS 3 or AS4 ACP
Sqn Trp x 3
- 4 x M1A1

[thatguy96]

The organization for the Tank Squadron attached to the ATF in Vietnam as of 1970, according to the documentation put out by the Army Concept Team in Vietnam, showed a squadron with 4 troops with 4 tanks each. The caveat to that was that the troops normally operated with only 3 tanks, with the fourth tank in each troop being kept in a squadron reserve, rotating to troops in need.

[DRG]

Which, of course, conflicts with the "offical" information provided on the Austrlian Goverment website Pat provided. By that, they had "offically" switched to three tanks per troop in 1968.

Troops in the field frequently make their own changes organizations like this and there very well may have been "special arrangements" made in Vietnam keeping the old number of tanks in the squadron but holding one back per troop for maintanance and war being what it is and subject to whims of commanders there may very well have been cases where 4 tanks per troop were fielded after 1968 but according to this info 3 per troop was the norm from about 1968. The info that continues to allude us is the report that they have gone to a three troop 4 tanks per troop organization and I think the only way we are going to know that for sure is if a serving member of the Australian army pops up. Right now I am "assuming" if it's true they have gone back to a 4 tank troop but cut the number of troops in a Sdn to 3 it happened when the Abrams was introduced.

That's what makes OOB work such a &$@!!! treat........

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by DRG

I started looking for info on the Australian Abrams and ended up on a Aussie website where one claim was ......

A / "Our tank Squadrons are equipped with 18 tanks per Sqn, with 4x troops of 4 tanks, 1x for the OC and 1x for the 2IC"

then someone else said.....

B / "We changed from 3 tanks per platoon to 4 and from four platoons per company to three not long ago. Two tanks are for the boss and his XO.......This system steals one manoeuvre element but increases the ability of the platoon to support and cover itself while on the run. "

Consider this a lesson on how things get screwed up

I went back a re-read the original forum these posts were made on and discovered on closer observation that " A/" was an Australian and " B/" was a German. (!! ) The whole "We changed from 3 tanks per platoon to 4 " comment had bugger all to do with Australia

I "assumed" everyone commenting was Australian


Not a total loss though. I did find quite a bit of useful info from all the sources provided .

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Read your last and understand the info, and your frustration from a different prospective. This 1968 level is getting more solid at this end also. Just opened up an email from Mr. David McGill ADF Australian War Memorial Museum Research Center and he can't find any info post 1968 concerning a 4 tank troop. Referred me to the ADF Calvary and Armor Museum which I've already contacted and am awaiting a response from as well along with Mick. Again email trail is available at anytime. No response needed, will keep you posted as info gets to me.
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Again no response needed. Tried to coax a response from Mick and the CAV.&ARM. Museum last weekend with a "status" email, no luck so far. Just sent an inquiry to THE ROYAL TANK REGIMENT ASSOCIATION at
http://www.royaltankregiment.com/en-GB/default.aspx , will wait and see what happens. As a sidebar, will provide another list this weekend not much longer then the last to include 2 MBT items, 1 armament vs game issue for an APC and 2 or 3 others not in the game but am still sorting through when fielded.
Need some sleep, have a great day!
Pat

[DRG]

No, need. I got all the info I needed from that first website to fix the problems in the OOB. Two things were wrong, now corrected.


Don