calling new modders

[LDiCesare]

Looks like a funny nation. I'd recommend EA T'ien Ch'i call ancestors and Wrath of the Ancestors spells too, as battlefield spells. Keep them at the same research levels as for TC, as they are far from powerful, but they can make death 1 mages more interesting on the battlefield.

[Gandalf Parker]

@Squirrelloid
Your notes are interesting. But you might have missed the place where I said this was concerning finding out what the AI uses and how it uses it in order to make more interesting AIs. We already know that what a player would do is not what the AI does. Mostly Im just looking for bulk-AIs at this point for variety. Maybe moving toward a SemiRand extension. But the lessons learned might also lead to someone building a serious AI-opponent modded nation which I would be willing to create a large game on my server for. We already have some general rules such as how the AI needs supplies, and which pretenders to allow it. Now Im trying to get some idea on how it uses its units.

Assassins as a site-provided capital-only unit has proven to be good. The AI does use them. After some play with the junk nation such as I listed Im fairly happy. The AI tends to use independents out toward the edges of its domain. And then as I get closer to its capital I find more serious armies, and more use of assassins and mages. It makes for interesting RPG play. It doesnt have to be a winning nation. Just an interesting one (and not kill itself off before I reach it)

The one I posted is a good model for junk-bulk filling in a really large map and game. But I started to wonder why it continually ranked lower than all of the built-in nations. Does the game have more lines specific to nations than I thought it did (IF Pangaea do this, if Mictlan do this) or is it general AI actions I need to pin down? Now that we all can use --comptrn to see what the AIs are doing we should be able to get an idea of how it decides to build its armies.

I did some testing of things such as varying the order that units appear in the recruit screen (mages first, or mounted commanders listed before walking ones) which didnt seem to affect much. I also tried things like listing heavy cavalry multiple times in case some random selection was involved but that didnt seem to help much either. So now it seems that we must only work on what units are being offered.

Thanks for the very complete Mage Nation design with unit ID numbers. I will try it out. And a lesser version of it would be a nasty province to stumble into and could be added to the SemiRand program now.

[Squirrelloid]

Wouldn't you want the AI to play more like players? Hmm... disabling all non-mage commander options - now that might be interesting...

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes I would want it to play more like human players. But things like "that unit doesnt make sense compared to the other unit" wont make it happen. The AI is pretty set in its ways. Logic doesnt seem to work.

So I guess our best bet is some experimentation to try and find out how we can aid it by giving it or not giving it certain units. Or at LEAST come up with some nation-builds that force it to play differently for variety sake even if we dont improve its abilities.

All mages with no recruitable units DOES make a nice change. So far its armies stay low, its provinces arent the lowest on the scoreboard altho not high, and its research it topping the charts. It does seem able to hold out. It will be interesting to see what it does with that summoning bonus later in the game. Maybe armies but it might end up forging lots of equipment and decking out thugs.

[Trumanator]

Meh, as EA Aby I recruit a demonbred every once in a while for assasination, scouting, when money's tight.

[Gandalf Parker]

For those who would like to download the Many Nations mod and try out their own ideas before posting them, here is one of the things Im doing.

Im playing on a 1500 province map. Im playing Era 1 games and putting in all nations including all of the extra nations.

Im using two different icons to run Dom3. One uses these switches:
"G:\Program Files\dominions3\dom3.exe" -wacd --comptrn --superhost --scoredump

That will host the game over and over and over without stopping to ask you anything. Every once in a awhile I look at the scores.html file in the games directory to see what turn its up to and how the various nations are doing against each other. When I get curious I stop that one, and then use the other dom3 icon without the --superhost switch so I can open the game in player view. This lets me open and look at ANY of the turn files and see what they are doing. It allows me to see what the AI is doing. What its building, what its researching, how its using its armies, etc.

I usually play Niefelheim because it holds out best with very little action on my part.

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Now, an interesting and honestly pretty easy way to build a new nation might be as follows.

1 - no troop choices at all
2 - Only mage commanders
3 - large gem income
4 - some Conj 0 national spells (you can steal from existing national spells if you want, or worst case scenario make copies of some spells with the only change being they're Conj 0 - both options avoid making new units)

Now, starting troops might be interesting, although giving them a handful of what would otherwise be summoned troops from Conj 0 could work.

The idea is a nation that runs armies of summons. Unlike LA Ermor, there's no free troops, so not overpowered, and you still want gold to hire your mages, so you can't totally trash your scales.

Example: Azgeth, City of Death

As the Ermorian bureaucracy collapsed it became increasingly easy for cities to strike out for independence. Azgeth, far from the center of the empire at Eldredgate, came under the control of a powerful cabal of necromancers and conjurers. The common people became slaves toiling for the benefit of their masters, and the army disbanded. In its stead, undead and demons filled the ranks of the army. To maintain its independence, Azgeth formed ties with the Onyx Amazon tribes nearby, who shared a similar appreciation of death magic, and through their rituals managed to make liaison with the hidden kingdom of Elludia.

Every child is tested before the age of five for signs of intelligence and magical aptitude. Those that are deemed worthy are remanded to the various places of magical learning to hone their craft at the feet of the masters.

Commanders:
#629 Stalker - assassin
#356 Onyx Priestess - H2 + 10%D + 10%E
#94 Conjurer - D1B1
#355 Onyx Sorceress - E1D1 +10%D
#310 Necromancer - D2
#95 Circle Master* - D2B2
#630 Elludian Moon Mage* - S2D1 +100% ESDB

Commanders marked with a * are capital only.

Heroes:
Multihero: demilich (as enchant spell Lichcraft)
Graxx, C'tissian Exile - copy of #161 Sauromancer
Ildach, Fallen Oracle - copy of #1581 Risen Oracle pretender, possibly with extra paths beyond base (might be too much work for these purposes)
The Undying King - Copy of #872 Ghost King with E3D3

Sites
The Crypt Underneath: 3d, Conj 20%
Temple of Darkness: 1d, summon: Shadow, Shade
Black Tower: 3d, Circle Master
Elludian Academy: 2s2d, Elludian Moon Mage (new site, 'Hidden Kingdom of Elludia didn't seem thematically appropriate, otherwise it would work. It also gives 3s1d instead of 2s2d, but that might be acceptable)

Total: 8d2s, 2 cap-only mages, Conj 20% site

(replace Crypt Underneath with Well of Darkness if you think the Conj site is overpowered, but I'm trying to throw them something because their top mages are clearly inferior to existing top-tier national mages, and their hire anywhere are generally inferior to other nations - basically, they could use the help).

National Spells:
Recommend Spirit Mastery and Reanimation be copied and those copies made nationals at Conj 0 and Ench 0 respectively. Possibly also Summon Shades.

Notes:
-The national priest(ess) should be able to reanimate, if at all possible.
-Pretender list (short, probably include more): PoD, Moloch, Lord of the Gates, Lich, Lich (female), Master Lich, Dracolich, Lord of Rebirth, Lord of the Night, Oracle, Fountain of Blood, Ghost King, Freak Lord, Arch Mage, Crone, Frost Father, Great Sage, Master Druid, Great Enchantress, Master Alchemist, Vampire Queen,

While it may not be what Gandalf whas looking for, Squirreloid's concept seemed interesting, so I went ahead and rolled it into a mod. CAVEAT: I haven't tested this AT ALL and I haven't plugged it into the game (did this while waiting on a batch process to run while at work) but I don't see any syntax errors after a quick read-through in a less bleary eyed state...if anyone wants to pick it up and run with it, feel free.

[Foodstamp]

I've found that a fun way to play Dominions for a change of pace is to create a nation with 1 recruitable which is the sage unit (Next time I am going to make the only recruitable a philosopher). Using map commands, I place a party of adventurers on the map in a desolate 0 pop province. Then I set the nation starting province somewhere else and make it detached from any other province. I give that province an awesome immobile patrolling unit that also acts as a dominion spreader.

Then I play the game as my party of adventurers trying to decide the outcomes of the AI wars, gaining experience, trying to make it into the hall of fame etc. As I raid provinces, that gives me the only gold income I have. That gold is spent on recruiting independents (prefer stealth because my party is all stealth) which I employee in my raids and quests. Also some of my gold gets spent on my research units back at home to give me new spells or chances to plop down a lab long enough to forge an item or summon a monster. My PD is abysmal and I could never hold a province even with it jacked up to 150.

One of the cool things I have learned from doing this is that my home detached province never gets random events, no matter my scales. That tidbit may be handy for future modding.

I need to reinstall RanDom and generate some cool provinces for better adventures .

[Squirrelloid]

Stavis: your Azgeth mod caused the game to crash due to 'bad start site #'

I tried running it with CBM, which may have been the problem, but I didn't think CBM changed many site #s...

Can you refer to sites by name, or does it require site# input? I can go look those up...

[Stavis_L]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Stavis: your Azgeth mod caused the game to crash due to 'bad start site #'

I tried running it with CBM, which may have been the problem, but I didn't think CBM changed many site #s...

Can you refer to sites by name, or does it require site# input? I can go look those up...

It's using site 800 for the "Elludian Academy", which it then refers to by name (as required) in the #startsite command.

I can't troubleshoot this right now, but if I get a chance I'll see if I can figure out what's going on; in the meantime, you might look for any #newsite 800 lines in other mods you've got enabled?