Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Kuritza]

Sigh. Bye, CM, hello again, vanilla.

[Jazzepi]

I'm still a bit wary of the clams being made unique items. I'd rather just see them made more expensive so that the return on investment is slower.

Otherwise a good update.

Could you provide a version were the clams aren't completely removed from the game and just nerfed instead?

Jazzepi

[chrispedersen]

changing the clams itself is trivial jazz.. but it begs a lot of other questions.

Bloodstones were nerfed - do you want them fixed too?
Naiad warriors were made dirt cheap as compensation... include the compensation or no....

[Trumanator]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Sigh. Bye, CM, hello again, vanilla.

Thats too bad, but if you still want to use it in SP you could always take out the gemgen part. Though MP might be more difficult, you can still start a game with your rules!

[Kuritza]

Heck, I dont even know.
Vanilla - back to useless Titans and overpriced rainbows. CBM - 'bang them hard with lotsa troops' as the only endgame strategy; nations with weak troops start weak and end up even weaker. Grim choice. I really hope this change will be undone in future updates, as boosters price hike before.

[Trumanator]

Its not like you can't use summons? You just don't get to have ridiculous numbers of rituals/forging/whatever.

[Fantomen]

@Kuritza: Wait and see a few games with this mod. I dont think the endgame will turn out that way, rather that we´ll see some new interesting strategies rise from the gutter.

Sure, I´m worried about balance too. Mostly that blood nations will get more dominant now as they are the other way to get obscene levels of "gems", but we´ll see.

[Kuritza]

Yea, you will be able to summon and forge. Just not enough to make difference, if you play as an underdog against a powerhouse.
Oh, and Astral Nexus will be even more imbalanced than it is now, because with your tiny gem income you will never ever come close to dispelling / replacing it.

New strategies wont arise out of *lack* of something. Heavy nerf of summons will make national troops more powerful and controlling territories with magic sites more important. This is the goal of this nerf, as far as I understand.

But then, your neighbour you just defeated in a decisive battle will turtle in his castles, sending black minions with bane venom charms everywhere (calling it 'fighting till the bitter end'), while somebody else will just go AI letting others claim their lands easily. I bet it sounds all-too-familiar. That other lucky dude, having suffered much less casualties and reaping much tastier reward, will continue to grow, while you will fall behind - and there will be no other resources to draw upon, just land and magic sites.

Or take LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh, for example. They get thousands of troops for free; at the moment you can try to use summons and SCs against them. Remove gemgens, and its your laughable recruitable troops against their endless hordes. Right, you might have one or two SCs, but so will they. Game over?

As for 'compensation'... Naiad warriors made cheaper? Oh please.

But in the end, its not my decision to make. I just stated my point - perhaps enough people will agree, and some consensus will be made (like two separate mods, which I'd love). Perhaps not - then I'm just wrong and should join vanilla games instead.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Yea, you will be able to summon and forge. Just not enough to make difference, if you play as an underdog against a powerhouse.
Oh, and Astral Nexus will be even more imbalanced than it is now, because with your tiny gem income you will never ever come close to dispelling / replacing it.

Their tiny gem income put it up, and they had to pass 150s benchmark to do so. Certainly your similarly tiny gem income can afford the 30s for dispelling + whatever boost you feel is appropriate - that's like a 1:5 advantage in your favor!

New strategies wont arise out of *lack* of something. Heavy nerf of summons will make national troops more powerful and controlling territories with magic sites more important. This is the goal of this nerf, as far as I understand.

But then, your neighbour you just defeated in a decisive battle will turtle in his castles, sending black minions with bane venom charms everywhere (calling it 'fighting till the bitter end'), while somebody else will just go AI letting others claim their lands easily. I bet it sounds all-too-familiar. That other lucky dude, having suffered much less casualties and reaping much tastier reward, will continue to grow, while you will fall behind - and there will be no other resources to draw upon, just land and magic sites.

and... what stops that from happening now? I mean, even now with gemgens the same stuff happens, and your opposite is surely clamming/bloodstoning/fetishing just as hard as you are. There's no difference in comparative advantage here.

Or take LA Ermor and LA Rlyeh, for example. They get thousands of troops for free; at the moment you can try to use summons and SCs against them. Remove gemgens, and its your laughable recruitable troops against their endless hordes. Right, you might have one or two SCs, but so will they. Game over?

Troops which are just so much chaff... Surely any LA nation can do something about those with national recruits. Strategic and tactical use of your mages may also be more important in such a scenario.

How did they not end up with just as many SCs as you before, as well? I mean, Rlyeh gets a great clamming mage on an N random, so its not like they're going to lack for clams. Ermor has great access to death magic for all that crazy death thugging/SCing without alchemizing. I'm just not seeing how lack of gem gens means you no longer have an SC advantage against them.

---------

Its not that I necessarily agree with removal of gem gens, but I don't think it has the consequences you do, because everyone is affected equally. This means equal reduction in the number of SCs on both sides, assuming the two sides are actually evenly matched. (Otherwise, the stronger side should still tend to defeat the weaker side if they fight straight-up).

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Their tiny gem income put it up, and they had to pass 150s benchmark to do so. Certainly your similarly tiny gem income can afford the 30s for dispelling + whatever boost you feel is appropriate - that's like a 1:5 advantage in your favor!

Even if you have stored 100+ astral to dispel Nexus immediately, which doesnt happen all the time, he will just cast it again next turn. Did you ever cast Nexus in an intense MP game? Its 200+ astral pearls per turn.

and... what stops that from happening now? I mean, even now with gemgens the same stuff happens, and your opposite is surely clamming/bloodstoning/fetishing just as hard as you are. There's no difference in comparative advantage here.

Of course there is a huge difference. No gemgens rule makes land much more important, which makes any gap wider. I think its too obvious to explain in detail.
Also, there's a fat chance that other dude didnt even start clamming yet. Imagine that its Mictlan. He can rush like no tomorrow, but he cant start clamming out of the box.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Troops which are just so much chaff... Surely any LA nation can do something about those with national recruits. Strategic and tactical use of your mages may also be more important in such a scenario.

Say again? Ermor troops are useless chaff? With natonal unholy blessing? Really? Thousand of longdead legionaires with 16+ attack and high MR anyone? With darkness? Knights of the Unholy Sepulchre, anyone?
Rlyeh spawn is useless chaff? Void creatures, tramplers, huh? Not to mention that Rlyeh also has recriutable troops to support this chaff, which happen to be identical to MA RLyeh troops. And MA RLyeh is a very solid nation.

So yes, surely and LA nation can do something about these with just national recruits, which is why even with gemgens these two nations won most games so far.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

How did they not end up with just as many SCs as you before, as well? I mean, Rlyeh gets a great clamming mage on an N random, so its not like they're going to lack for clams. Ermor has great access to death magic for all that crazy death thugging/SCing without alchemizing. I'm just not seeing how lack of gem gens means you no longer have an SC advantage against them.

Ermor's got a weak research, so its gonna take a while before he can get SCs and clammers of his own.
Rlyeh... Well, in my opinion LA RLyeh is just crazy, in all meanings. But when X > Y, X/Y < X + a / Y + a.
In other words, when national troops dont matter as much as SCs and summons do, advantage in national troops also doesnt matter as much.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Its not that I necessarily agree with removal of gem gens, but I don't think it has the consequences you do, because everyone is affected equally. This means equal reduction in the number of SCs on both sides, assuming the two sides are actually evenly matched. (Otherwise, the stronger side should still tend to defeat the weaker side if they fight straight-up).

Affected equally doesnt mean equally hurt. Reduction in the number of SCs will strengthen some nations and weaken others. Also, see above about widening all gaps.