Balance Mod: Newest Nation - TC

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Any consideration for making them unique?
That way they are still in the game, useful but not abusable (or no more than any other unique)

Ok. To answer a few questions or comments.

a). I made the No Generators mod, in order to give people options in games. Sure, I could make the clam or blood stone unique.

However, I absolutely hate the rush to Con-8 that characterizes almost every game. So this was one small blow against that.

b). I absolutely agree that some nations are *truly* hosed by this.
What I am looking at doing is compensating some nations.

My ideas so far, for Oceania, for example one of the following
1. Use burnsaber's Oceania mod.
2. Azatoths viceroy: Give Oceania some access to a Sea Troll
3. Craft a spell that summons a unit that creates pearls, or comes with a clam. Thats the advantage of con level 12. Not removed from the game, can still be given to nations where its an integral part of the game.

So either something like ravensfeast (unlikely), or Blessing of Pearl. This spell would summon a Sacred Marytyr equipped with a clam. It would be a holy spell, only castable on sacred, h3 requirement. And have a cost of 20 water. It would also kill the caster, by chaining "kill me".

Off the top of my head, it makes oceania think about its capitol only(?) production. It limits abuse by killing the caster, and requiring an h3 casting level. And yes, I know it requires adding water to bishop fishes. Reasonable, I think.

c). Also, I may make a mode where the cost of generators are merely increased. 20/10 for a clam. This means the return is 3% rather than 5%. Same cost for blood stones.

Off the top of my head, nations that really require these items are:

MA, LA Agartha
LA Ulm
MA Oceania

If you think others do, let me know.

[Burnsaber]

Well, if you use my mod for Oceania, there won't be no need for the complicated martyr spell or magical bishop fishes. The whole mod was sort of designed for a enviroment without clams.

[Illuminated One]

Machaka (2 fever fetishes >= 1 clam, more micro is only worse)? Marverni, Bandar Log?

Originally Posted by Sombre

If the only thing a nation has going for it is spamming gen gems then that nation needs a change because gen hoarding kinda sucks for all involved. I'm looking at you MA Oceania.

The point is not imo that the nation can't do anything except gem gens (with the exception of Oceania maybe), but that they eat a lot of gems to stay competitive. Which can still be fun.
I don't view it as very unbalancing, on its own it's not even very powerful compared to rushing someone or getting a global up until late in the game. The main problem is that it lenghtens the game, where turns are getting unfun. But then I'd rather fix that.

[chrispedersen]

Actually, illuminated, I think that is a compelling answer for why fever fetishes ought to be nerfed as well.

[hEad]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Actually, illuminated, I think that is a compelling answer for why fever fetishes ought to be nerfed as well.

I am not sure why there is even a problem with clams, stones etc? Why is there a beef with their inclusion in the game?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by hEad

I am not sure why there is even a problem with clams, stones etc? Why is there a beef with their inclusion in the game?

I think the complaint stems from two sources:
1) they make the endgame even stupider than it would be otherwise.
2) the micromanagement they force upon one to compete is obscene.

#2 could have been solved by a better interface. (Like, I dunno, a button or command which told the game to move all gems at a location from commanders to the lab)

#1 can only be solved by removing or making unique the items.

I have not experienced #1. I have experienced #2 and I must say I loathe gem generation items because of micromanagement, while at the same time I feel compelled to use them because of how ridiculously disproportionate the power they provide is.

[Black Sun Empire]

Speaking from a newbie perspective. Anything that reduces micromanagement should be encouraged.

[chrispedersen]

I am actually neutral on the issue. However, I'm all in favor of giving someone the option to play with them or not play with them.

So, I'll fix fever fetishes today or tomorow. I'll also come up with compensations for the affected nations, day or two after that

[hEad]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

I am actually neutral on the issue. However, I'm all in favor of giving someone the option to play with them or not play with them.

So, I'll fix fever fetishes today or tomorow. I'll also come up with compensations for the affected nations, day or two after that

I like a good compensation, same as the next guy, so I'm looking forward to seeing what you pull out of the bag.

[Dragar]

Great idea Chris. I agree with taking them out and giving compensation. Would be great if there was a replacement earth booster though. I don't think giving alternate ways to create gems is the way to go, need to strengthen the nation through what they should be good at rather than loading them with astral gems.

Note that EA Abysia is on the list for heavily affected, I find bloodstones are critical for the earth boost on the anointed and are about the only way to leverage their meagre blood capability.

The earth generation is currently the only way to have a hope at casting their lvl 8 scorpion men summons in any kind of decent numbers, and is particularly used for gate cleavers to cover how wwoeful they are at sieging and how difficult it is to combine indies with abysians.

Suggested compensations would be:
1. Earth booster with same path requirements but lower cost (5 earth 10 blood) to account for no gem generation
2. Halve Scorpion Men cost from 12 to 6

That should be enough, the loss of gem generation would be covered by the cheaper cost to get the anointeds the earth boost. It would work for the other abysia eras too