Need opinions on MA Nation power

[hEad]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Here is a small point ranking [1-10] made for Preponderance, which I don't agree totally [would value Vanheim lower, Pythium higher for example, but it was for team game with special settings too, so keep that in mind]:

Ma Pythium: 6
Ma Man: 3
Ma Ulm: 3
Ma Ermor: 7
Ma Arco: 6
Ma Marignon: 4
Ma Mictlan: 5
Ma Mackaka: 5
Ma Agartha: 2
Ma Aby: 4
Ma Caelum: 5
Ma C'tis: 4
Ma Pan: 4
Ma Van: 7
Ma Jotun: 6
Ma Bandar log: 5
Ma Shinuyama: 4
Ma Ashdod: 12+
Ma Eriu: 5
Ma T'ien Ch'i: 4

Crikey! Ashdod a 12+? Agartha the turkey of the age, Worse than Man?

So an average of 4.68 if you don't include Ashdod

The reason why i asked this is because i'm mucking around with a little mod to add a bit more thug action to the game and trying to work out a balance.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...369#post691369

Continuing on this thread, what are the classic blesses for each bless nation in so much as, what are the typical path choices for a pretender? i.e Water and Nature for Pythiums Hydras... A rainbow or SC for Ulm etc

[Meglobob]

Ma Agartha IS NOT a 2, nor a turkey. The nation is a powerhouse in middle to late game, it has some of the best national summons in the game.

It is however, 'weak' in the early game, so the problem is surviving and prospering to the middle to late game. Even so, overall its more powerful than Oceania, Machaka, Man and Ulm.

Ashdod is merely a 10/10 nation, perhaps useful for new Dom3 players to play?!? It does stick out like a sore thumb in Ma.

[Zeldor]

head:

That ranking is for CBM game [so standard mod], all-age game with almost no water and lots of special sites. And team game. So that's the reason why so low scores for MA - you have EA powerhouses that take 8-10 range. And yeah, Ashdod is so powerful that it does not fit in the scale.

I don't see any real reason why some people rate MA Agartha middle and late game so high. I agree that 2 may be too low for them [3-4 would be more realistic, closer to 3], but they are extremely weak early on, very boring and their national strength is not so uber [just bonus hp in your dom for lifeless units, like more HP mattered much later].

Pythium has huge diversity on their mages, which can be boosted by communions to extreme. Add unexplainable gem-income bonus from capital [and it's in S], powerful summons, hydras, heavy infantry... they are strongest MA nation if you ask me [except Ashdod that is].

MA is not really a bless age. You have Jotun with standard E/N bless, Mictlan with usually S9F9, Ermor with W9F9 and that's pretty much it.

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Pythium has a number of big boosts from dom2, though old age is a problem. The biggest boost is the angelic summons, which use the huge astral income Pythium had a very hard time leveraging until late game in dom2. Then there are the hydras boosts.

Some more subtle effects have also helped them out. Nerfing the magic scale and boosting gold income means they can afford to pump a theurg elder every turn, giving them a quite the comparative research edge.

Also, growth scale plus some astral healing field trips can save all but a very few mages from old age.

You seem to be cherry picking here, and over stating the effect of some of the boosts Pythium has gotten.

1. The really useful angelic summons were already in Dom2 (although I do not recall if their stats were as good, IIRC, the harbinger, the real workhorse got his air boosted from 2 to 3 which is very nice).

2. Whether the hydra modification was a boon or a bane is an open question (it really depends upon the foes, mundane troops do far better against the new hydras, save-or-die spells much worse).

3. The ability of pump more Arch Theurgs (although I like calling them elder theurg's just due to their very substantial old age) is an interesting advantage. While they are not efficient researchers it is true that there are few 9RP/turn mages in the world. I do think this is a very thin advantage unless you are relying on a one to two turn advantage to getting that all important buff for your SC.

4. As for astral healing, that is a comical and expensive, way to deal with old age. Comical in that all old age mages get teleported to the front lines. However, expensive in that you would figure that 3 gems on the ubiquitous shroud would be better spent (note: you do not have the gems for hammers, so it could cost 5, which is pricey).

I did not even go into the subtle changes which have affected Pythium. The one that leaps to mind is the change to quickness. While this affected a good number of nation it was a massive nerf to those nations (it was justified in my mind, but still it must be considered when comparing Dom2 to Dom3 nations).

Anyway, I think that the love for Pythium (my Dom2 favorite, or at least one of my Dom2 favorites!) is a holdover from the old days when they were one of the elite nations.

[Tyrant]

If you are looking for nations to mod in MA, i'd say Man (though Xeiter did an MA Man balance mod awhile back) and Machaka need the love.

Man can often make a go of it in the early and mid game, but they are notorious for collapsing like a stuck balloon in the later game. So much so that their late game weakness is partially responsible for their early game success- people leave them for later 'cause they know they are easy prey.

I'm not really sure why Machaka never wins, they seem solid to me, but i have not played them since my very first net game of DomII and only fought them once in Dom3. Machaka's also pretty "vanilla." They have no national spells at all and lots of their stuff could be just be updated to the levels of more recent nations. Seems to me you could do all sorts of fun jungle stuff involving lions and creepy-crawlies of all description. I'm too lazy to mod, but i've thought about doing Machaka alot and they'd be my pick.

The other nations that have not won in MA are Bandar (everyone knows this is because of their horrible PD), Atlantis (can't hold their own underwater vs the other two water nations), Vanheim and Eriu. Haven't put much thought into it, but i suspect that the last two may suffer from being very capitol dependent in an age when that is not the norm. The two are quite similar and Vanheim used be considered a top nation.

As to strong nations, well, Pythium's won 7 of 43 game in the HoH, that's almost 1/6 and speaks for itself. People say angels, but i point out that Marignon has angels as well so it's more than that.
Pangaea also has a noticeable win total- 5.5 on the HoH. Personally, i think Ermor and Marignon are under appreciated powerhouses and Caelum is my least favorite opponent in any age.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

You seem to be cherry picking here, and over stating the effect of some of the boosts Pythium has gotten.

1. The really useful angelic summons were already in Dom2 (although I do not recall if their stats were as good, IIRC, the harbinger, the real workhorse got his air boosted from 2 to 3 which is very nice).

2. Whether the hydra modification was a boon or a bane is an open question (it really depends upon the foes, mundane troops do far better against the new hydras, save-or-die spells much worse).

3. The ability of pump more Arch Theurgs (although I like calling them elder theurg's just due to their very substantial old age) is an interesting advantage. While they are not efficient researchers it is true that there are few 9RP/turn mages in the world. I do think this is a very thin advantage unless you are relying on a one to two turn advantage to getting that all important buff for your SC.

4. As for astral healing, that is a comical and expensive, way to deal with old age. Comical in that all old age mages get teleported to the front lines. However, expensive in that you would figure that 3 gems on the ubiquitous shroud would be better spent (note: you do not have the gems for hammers, so it could cost 5, which is pricey).

I did not even go into the subtle changes which have affected Pythium. The one that leaps to mind is the change to quickness. While this affected a good number of nation it was a massive nerf to those nations (it was justified in my mind, but still it must be considered when comparing Dom2 to Dom3 nations).

Anyway, I think that the love for Pythium (my Dom2 favorite, or at least one of my Dom2 favorites!) is a holdover from the old days when they were one of the elite nations.

Many of the angelic summons were already there in dom2... but not only did they get boosted but now Pythium is one of the few nations that have access to them.

It's true the hydras changes can be debated, but having them somewhat worse vs normal troops (which they are still quite a good against) in exchange for making most counters to them extremely difficult is seems a more than fair trade.

The astral healing trick is only a big expense if you don't take into account how useful they are on the front lines anyway. Anyway, it's kind of overblown how big a deal old age is, with growth 3 you end up with only 1-2 diseased arch theurgs out of 12.

Oh and I forgot one of the largest boosts, shield mechanics were totally redone, making Pythium's tower shields a near immunity to arrows.

I actually doubt much Pythium love is a holdover... as has been said their win record kind of speaks for iteslf.

[Kuritza]

I would totally rate TC higher than 4 (5-6, its a very solid nation), and absolutely rate Eriu lower than 5 (4 seems about right).

[Zeldor]

MA TC is weakest from all TCs. Eriu is surely better than TC. Almost every nation can be +- 1 point, it all depends on mods, map size, other nations in the game etc etc. TC surely isn't at the level for let's say Arco though.

[Baalz]

MA Oceana had an interesting thread suggesting mod additions. Here's the link in case you find anything inspiring:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...ghlight=Oceana

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by Tyrant

As to strong nations, well, Pythium's won 7 of 43 game in the HoH, that's almost 1/6 and speaks for itself. People say angels, but i point out that Marignon has angels as well so it's more than that.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

as has been said their win record kind of speaks for iteslf.

I have to agree with this final point. Although the sample size is not that large it does suggest that Pythium is still quite powerful (I would have expected Arco, Jotun, and Marignon, and Ashdod to have done somewhat better).