artillery cluster ammo

[PanzerBob]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Get back in the game Bob! :-p

First thing tomorrow

As well, I have no problem if you want to have NO CM for ARTY & Aircraft for the next battle. Since both forces are Expidetionary in nature, running out of those muntions would ceratinly be inline with our Campaign.

Bob out

[Urban]

In my opinion cluster ammo are a little bit too powerfull. I have try to partialy solve that :

change value : HE penetration to 4 for 155mm arty
AP penetration = 222 (heat code for the old sub munition)
AP kill 6
Heat penetration 6

For the arty using EFP sub munition (like the "BONUS" shell):

HE penetration =4
AP penetration = 13
AP kill = 1
HEAT : 0

With this value cluster remain devastating against hold APC (BTR 50/60, M113 or pre 1970 tanks) but moderne MBT suffer just a lot of suppression, some immobilisation or kill if you have a lucky top hit.
Many moderne army have start to remove cluster ammo for political, moral () reasons but in reality it's becauses this hold weapons systems are uneffective against modern vehicle and too dangerous for fighting agains guerilla or urban area (close quarter fight, civilians, unexploded ammo, ...)

[Imp]

Many moderne army have start to remove cluster ammo for political, moral () reasons but in reality it's becauses this hold weapons systems are uneffective against modern vehicle and too dangerous for fighting agains guerilla or urban area (close quarter fight, civilians, unexploded ammo, ...)

May I suggest watching some video of it working the chances of not getting a hit are remote if it lands near the target slow mo shows target vanish in a cloud of explosions.
On the power may have caused ammo blow out but one I saw went off directly above the tank & blew the turret at least 20 feet in the air.
They stop using them unless we have a real war of course because they leave unexploded munitions behind for the unwary civilian to trigger by jumping in the air & spreading themselves in all directions, nothing to do with effectivness.

[PanzerBob]

.....and unexploded muntions under 4.5 do get created, nice touch guys!!! I've seen 0ne or two effected hexes per strike, maybe be strike size driven but at this point it's too early to tell. Again nice touch!!

Bob out

They blowd up reel good!!!

[Koh]

At first I was opposed to the idea given the low percentage of duds (around 1-4 % depending on the model) the submunitions leave, but seeing how it's done and how it really usually is just one or two hexes even after an MRLS barrage, it's probably pretty accurately done. Adds a nice touch.

[Urban]

Originally Posted by Imp

May I suggest watching some video of it working the chances of not getting a hit are remote if it lands near the target slow mo shows target vanish in a cloud of explosions.
On the power may have caused ammo blow out but one I saw went off directly above the tank & blew the turret at least 20 feet in the air.
They stop using them unless we have a real war of course because they leave unexploded munitions behind for the unwary civilian to trigger by jumping in the air & spreading themselves in all directions, nothing to do with effectivness.

I have watch a lot of video and yes this weapons are devastating against the targets. If you look closer you could identifie this targets as 1970/1980 era APC or tanks. THe officials penetration value for M77 dual purpose sub munition (MLRS and cagro shell)is 60 mm RHA with a heat warhead and 130 mm for the BONUS shell EFP.
Yes it's enought to obliterate an old T55 but T90, Abrahm, Leo2, ect will probably just need severe repaint (and lot of beer for the crew morale ).
Of course you could have some lucky hits (or unlucky if your the target) but 60 for the HE penetration was looking a little bit too high for me (it's the HE pen of a 1000lb JDAM ).

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by Imp

May I suggest watching some video of it working the chances of not getting a hit are remote if it lands near the target slow mo shows target vanish in a cloud of explosions.

True, but do the math. Most spectacular videos are CBU-87/B, typically covering an elipse of 200*400 meters. That is some 62831 square meters, ie in average (I expect more bomblets would land towards the center, less ont he edges) 311 sq meters per bomblet. To kill a tank you need a direct hit - either on combat compartment or the engine - and under a good angle. Anyway, let's assume say a tank of 4 m x 7 m - that's just 28 square meters, and even there the vulnerable area is smaller. That'd mean that even tank in the middle of impact zone has some chance, though it would likely have crew suppressed as hell and will have all antennae etc. chopped off by splinters.

The cloud of dust from bomblet explosions for sure looks awesome and it's an effective weapon, but AFAIK heavy ordnance (bombs, mavericks, 155mm delay fused shells etc) is a preferred choice against armored targets, with ICM being used more for "soft" targets where you do not need a direct hit, a splinter shower will do.

[Imp]

The video was an arty strike area about 3 times the size of the tank & yes it was an old one blowing up an Abrams for a test is probably expensive. Thats why I stated if lands near the area covered is not that much greater than a standard arty shell.
I will trust you on the specs the lower one would certainly strugle but the 130 if the tank was in the cloud would stand a good chance of being destroyed or damaged if hit anywhere but the front aspect. Even those Swedish mortar shells look pretty good vs APCs. In game how often do they kill late tanks if hit a platoon might kill one perhaps damage another. The game does not model damage but I would think sensitive systems like TI targeting would stand a good chance of not surviving. I use them mainly to suppress armour before my tanks strike as often only MGs fire back. Also against light vehicles like IFVs & ATGMs which I class as their major targets.
I am not saying you are wrong if those are the figures then perhaps a reduction is required but not as low as you have set because.
Game already determines if hits or misses if hits you can assume multiple strikes so the chance of hitting a soft spot goes up. Model this by increasing effect slightly & perhaps if someone is willing to do some research have more than the 2 generic settings used by most units.

[Urban]

I have made a test :

LRM cluster ammo :
Warhead : 8 (still under testing)
HE pen : 1
HE kill : 60
AP pen : 222 (heat code)
AP kill : 64 (look to be an HE kill equivalent when you use AP ammo)
Heat pen : 6

Target : final result after the second salvo.

Egyptian T55 A compagnie (10 tank) : 4 destroyed, 4 routed, 1 retreating and 1 buttoned.

Egyptian mech compagnie : Only one BTR 50K left, 5 infantry sections destroyed the 6 surviving sections are running like hell with eavy loses.

Second test vs only tanks (dispersed on 10x10 hex area):

10 T55-A : 4 dest, 2 rout, 1 retreat, 3 butoned
10 T62-A : 4 dest, 1 rout, 3 retreat, 2 butoned
10 M60A1 : 2 dest, 4 rout, 2 retreat, 2 butoned
10 M60A3 : 3 dest, 1 rout, 2 retreat, 3 butoned

[Koh]

One thing I'd be interested in finding out is how much of the hits scored usually land on the top of the vehicle. I'd imagine that given the nature of the shells, most of the bomblets that hit the vehicle at all will fall on top of it.

I ran a test in MBT and the results I got were 25/59 of the hits scored were registered as hitting the top of the vehicle. Do the bomblets and cluster munitions use a different method than other artillery shells to calculate where on the vehicle the bomblet hits? Seems to me that the top hit percentage should be higher, unless the "side hull" and other such hits represent something different than literal side hull hits. I've always taken the extra penetration in bomblets and cluster munitions to represent the fact that they pretty much more often than not hit the top of the vehicle, while the game mechanics force them to hit the sides and front hull of the vehicle.