Communions

[GrudgeBringer]

Do ALL mages have to be the same?

Can I have say...7 mystics, 3 indie mages, and the rest assorted shamans, mages ect?

I know the mystics can CAST Slave Master and Slave but i have also seen that I can forge Slave collars whic I suppose works in the same way.

I thought that all slaves split the Fatigue evenly when a spell is cast and it has a set amount based on the spell.

I am seeing in the posts on here how fatigue is amplified somehow...

Am I just that dense or is this very confusing?

I reread the guide agian and some stuff is clearer, but it seems like everytime I think I have it understood there is an exception.

Is Fatigue pre determined by the game (say Blade wind is 20 fatigue..will it ALWAYS be 20 fatigue split between the slaves or does it amplify in some way)OR does it go by the Castor and how many levels it has in its path?

(say the master has a lvl 6 so a spell fatigue is magnified to match his raised status?

sigh.....

[Benjamin]

Here's your formula:

Take the fatigue that's listed for a spell in the manual. For blade wind this would be 80.

Divide by the number of slaves. If you have 4 slaves, this would be 80/4 = 20 "base fatigue" going to each.

Then for each slave adjust the base fatigue by their relative path level to get the fatigue they actually receive.

If they are lower than spell level, fatigue received = base*(1+levels below)

If they are higher than spell level, fatigue received = base/(1+levels above)

They also of course (well, nearly positive) get their spell casting encumbrance as well.

Blade wind is level 3, and 4 slaves that have no earth magic have relative earth path level 2 (0+log base2 of 4, as there are 4 slaves). That means they are 1 level low, so double the base of 20 and give each 40 + encumbrance.

Hope that helps.

And by the way, I couldn't help but laugh when you suggested equipping slave collars. I'd reread the description before you try that .

(you're looking for a slave matrix which is S1E1 and a greater magic item I think).

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by GrudgeBringer

Do ALL mages have to be the same?

No. As long as they are able to cast Communion Slave (or Sabbath Slave) *or* carry the item Slave Matrix (which is a Construction 4 item that requires E1S1). Notice that no slaves will be boosted unless you have at least one Communion Master (or Sabbath Master) alive (either from the spell Communion Master (or Sabbath Master) or from the item Master Matrix (which is also a Construction 4 item that require E1S1)

Can I have say...7 mystics, 3 indie mages, and the rest assorted shamans, mages ect?

As long as the above is true, yes you can.

I know the mystics can CAST Slave Master and Slave but i have also seen that I can forge Slave collars whic I suppose works in the same way.

Slave Collar is not the item you think of. Slave Collar would be quite bad for your mages

I thought that all slaves split the Fatigue evenly when a spell is cast and it has a set amount based on the spell.

As has been pointed out, the fatigue is not split evenly, as such. Let me try to give an example (and others may comment if I have understood this thing right over the past years ).

EXAMPLE: You have Communion Master and 16 slaves. The master has with items S8, thus he is boosted to S12 from the communion. The slaves are S2 mages, thus boosted to S6 from communion (notice that this boost is *only* for fatigue, they can't go around casting S6 spells themselves).

On first round each of your mages cast the You decide to cast Communion Slave (except the master casts Communion Master of course). On second round your master casts Master Enslave (lets say he does it with 13 astral pearls). How does the fatigue split?

The Master gets 800/9 (as he has 4 extra levels in S above the required S8 *and* he uses those five extra Astral Pearls to further boost the effective level to 16 for this casting) which is 89 (notice that the AI does not willingly cast spells that kill them, and sometimes are reluctant with spells that would make them unconcious too; for the important killer spells make sure you have enough extra gems along ).

The slaves get first 800/16=50 fatigue each (as there are 16, and the 800 is split evenly). However, as they are effectively 3 levels short from the required S8 the fatigue is multiplied by 3, thus each slave gets 150 fatigue and they fall unconcious.


About the reverse communion. Lets say 18 mages with S2 do a reverse communion. If you do this, be sure that the masters are the last to cast the spells, because any slave casting after either master do nothing. Lets assume you are smart and give the two masters the Master Matrix, so they are automagically the masters.

On 1st round each slave casts Communion Slave. The first master (remember that the Master Matrix makes him autmagically the master!) casts Power of Spheres, which then boosts *all* the masters and slaves (so they all have now S3). The second master casts Personal Luck (for example), and all your slaves and masters now have Luck.

On second round you can then go all bananas with S3 spells, lets say you are facing a SC, so all your slaves cast Soul Slay. That is 16 times Soul Slay, and hopefully at least one will not be resisted What is more important, the slave casting the Soul Slay will for fatigue (only) be considered as a S3+4 = S7 mage, so each Soul Slay provides only 20/4 = 5 fatigue. Or to take out a mage heavy opposition, why not cast Magic Duel; each slave will take 100/6 = 18 fatigue (so they could be scripted Communion Slave, Mind Duel x4 and not go unconcious (as long as they remember to bring along 4 pearls, of course) and simply rip apart the opposing mages).



Lets say you have different types of mages as Communion Slaves. Lets say the master casts a spell that requires E5 (lets say it is Army of Lead, 300 fatigue), and you have 8 slaves (effectively boosting levels by 3 for fatigue for the slaves). 1 of the slaves has no paths in Eearth, five have E1, and two have E2. The master casts the spell, and thus each slave recieves a "basic" 300/8=38 fatigue, but how do each of them different level mages recieve fatigue regarding their level in Earth?
E0 becomes E3 for fatigues, so he recieves the 38x3=114 fatigue
E1 becomes E4 for fatigue, so he recieves 38x22=76 fatigue
E2 becoms E5 for fatigue, so he recieves the 38 fatigue



Hopefully I did get it all right, and hopefully this is of some use for easier understanding

[Benjamin]

On second round you can then go all bananas with S3 spells, lets say you are facing a SC, so all your slaves cast Soul Slay. That is 16 times Soul Slay, and hopefully at least one will not be resisted What is more important, the slave casting the Soul Slay will for fatigue (only) be considered as a S3+4 = S7 mage, so each Soul Slay provides only 20/4 = 5 fatigue.

This is wrong. Slaves do not get bonus communion levels for spells they themselves cast, not even for fatigue. Only when the masters cast.

[GrudgeBringer]

wow....

THANKS EVERYONE, I may have to read ir 2 or 3 times but I think I am getting the gist of what is being said.

One question, when you talk about bringing along gems (I would suppose you mean Astral Pearls) how much does each gem reduce the fatigue?

So , if I have 2 slaves that are boosted 2 levels more than 2 others then the way I understand itis...if I use peaarls then they will ( for all intent and puposes) absorb some of the fatigue...

IF this si correct then I am on the right road.

I just need to know how MUCH they absorb and is it standard no matter what type of mage and what level.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by GrudgeBringer

One question, when you talk about bringing along gems (I would suppose you mean Astral Pearls) how much does each gem reduce the fatigue?

Slaves can't use gems to reduce fatigue recieved from the masters spells.

Gems are used to increase the level in the path. So if a spell requires 3 gems to cast, each gem used above that increases the level in that path by one (which reduce the fatigue, and can even be used to cast spells that have too high requirement otherwise). The mage can use at most as many gems as he has levels in that magic; for example a mage with E2 could at most use 2 earth gems, while a mage with E10 could use 10 gems.


@Benjamin: Are you positive that the paths are not increased for fatigue? I admit it has been a while since I last toyed around with communions, but I remember clearly being able to cast Communion Slave, Mind Duelx4 with 16 slaves without any of them falling unconcious. That was in a SP where I tested communions jsut to get a feeling at how to use them, and the opposing AI side had no astral mages so the result was absolute carnage... OTOH, I might have had Light of the Northern Star going on too, can't really remember .

[JimMorrison]

As far as I know, the bug still exists whereby the AI will eat as many gems as it can for high Fatigue spells, but it can only actually gain the benefit of -1- gem for purposes of reducing the actual Fatigue incurred.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

As far as I know, the bug still exists whereby the AI will eat as many gems as it can for high Fatigue spells, but it can only actually gain the benefit of -1- gem for purposes of reducing the actual Fatigue incurred.

The first extra gem does more than just lower fatigue. Gems after the first only lower fatigue. Manual p- 89, "Using magic gems in combat".
Are you saying that this mechanic does not work as written in the manual? Just checking, since this thread is VERY confusing.


Jarkko, are you sure you used Magic Duel in your test?
It can only target enemy Astral mages, the casting mage has a good chance of dying himself, and it's fatiguecost of 100 means that one pearl is required to cast it in all cases. Even if all of your 16 slaves had 4 astral pearls and didn't use all for the first casting, I doubt the enemy army had 16*4 = 64 astral mages.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Jarkko, are you sure you used Magic Duel in your test?

Weeelll... now that you ask, I have to answer it most likely wasn't Prolly was Soul Slay then


I really need to start playing something else instead of always picking Pangaea... It's just that the hordes of naked women that somehow tend to catch my attention...

[Gregstrom]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

EXAMPLE: You have Communion Master and 16 slaves. The master has with items S8, thus he is boosted to S12 from the communion. The slaves are S2 mages, thus boosted to S6 from communion (notice that this boost is *only* for fatigue, they can't go around casting S6 spells themselves).

On first round each of your mages cast the You decide to cast Communion Slave (except the master casts Communion Master of course). On second round your master casts Master Enslave (lets say he does it with 13 astral pearls). How does the fatigue split?

The Master gets 800/9 (as he has 4 extra levels in S above the required S8 *and* he uses those five extra Astral Pearls to further boost the effective level to 16 for this casting) which is 89 (notice that the AI does not willingly cast spells that kill them, and sometimes are reluctant with spells that would make them unconcious too; for the important killer spells make sure you have enough extra gems along ).

The slaves get first 800/16=50 fatigue each (as there are 16, and the 800 is split evenly). However, as they are effectively 3 levels short from the required S8 the fatigue is multiplied by 3, thus each slave gets 150 fatigue and they fall unconcious.

A couple of points.

1. According to the research in Baalz' thread about communions, the Master ONLY gets fatigue equal to his spellcasting encumbrance - normally under 10 points, and certainly not 89. Spell fatigue As an addendum: AFAIK, spell fatigue caps out at 200 outside communions. Cast a spell worth 300 fatigue, and your mage will fall unconscious with 200.

2. If your slaves are 3 levels short of S8, I think they'd get 4 times the fatigue.

So, you'd actually get a master with <10 fatigue and a bunch of slaves with probably 200. This would be a good time to cast Vortex of Returning.