ABM (if I can figure out how to make that work ).

[Ornedan]

∃ cygwin, mingw

Or stuff like UltraCompare if one doesn't want to touch a command shell. Since diff is a GNU tool, it's pretty much not been ported only to some embedded platforms.

Also, the diff isn't just for finding balance changes. You get all the modifications that way, including bugfixes.

[llamabeast]

I guess if chris wants QM to consider his suggestions, he should just write them out in a list along with the rationale for the changes.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Llama - that's the point, if Chris bundles his changes with all of CBM, there is no way to look at those changes. But much of this was stuff that Chris wanted to see in the full version of CBM, so since QM is very interested in what people want to see made more "balanced", it seems this would be a good aid to that communication process.


As far as the wolves go, I just figured that human history has shown us that 1 canine is superior to 1 man in hunting/tracking ability, in general terms. So I thought that was a nice change (even though odds of me personally using Wolves for anything in Dom3 <1%). Maybe that's not Chris' reasoning, but I thought it was good.

It was exactly my reasoning. If you have wolves that are units (like any other unit) - you get to use the talents of they unit. Flying units fly, stealthy units stealth.

Wolves do have great noses, hence the small patrol ability.

Personally, I am not at all likely to use them either as is, but I might be *more* likely now. Honestly, I thought they needed a bigger boost - I mean many units have pbs of 10 or more - but I tend to want to err on the side of caution.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Are you going to remove old age altogether? If not, what kind of commanders will you leave old?

Generally, I favor incrementalism. Many nations top line mages have specific references to old. All of those nations remained old (iirc) for thematic reasons.

In general however, many nations had 'acolytes'. None of the acolytes contained text saying old - and yet many of them were.
So I believe I removed old age from all acolytes.

I don't believe many people build them, but they might be someone more attractive now.

A few nations were old where I thought it was unthematic. Abysia's slayers are no longer old. Sorry, they idea of a geriatric assassin (stay put while I gum you to death)...

Also, a few nations where I thought they shouldn't be old, where alreadly very strong, so I did not change the nation. The idea to my mind is to increase balance, as well as make units and spells that are not currently viable, more so. So anyway, for this reason nations like EA-Mictlan - a low tech, low lifespan nation, did not get old age tags removed.

Generally, the nations affected are in the readme.

I also *do* like the idea of removing old age entirely, however I figured old age was part of the general balancing act and hence removing it entirely was not appropriate for a balancing mod. However someday I may write an "old age" mod where all old age is removed. A golden time of magic, indeed.

How did you change Black Bull and Blindfighters?

Black bull had a bug in CBM that gave him stats and text from the fenris wolf (or vice versa). I merely removed the bug.
Blind fighters had 8 levels of air, the numbers were juxtaposed. I merely changed 8 1 / 1 8 ie., giving them one level of holy.

Are Cat Charm, Fires from Afar and Seeking Arrow now at the same research level they were in vanilla, or did you make them available earlier? No manual, no game, can't check myself.

Cat charm I restored to vanilla level. Fires from afar and seeking arrow I did not change level - I lowered the casting cost.

Seeking arrow got 1 gem cheaper, and fires from afar now costs 4 fire gems.

It is my general thought that Astral and death schools are the strongest. Air is pretty good. Water, Nature and fire are somewhat weak.

But additionally, I would like to see additional options open up for play. Much of the current game focuses on summons, magic item construction, SC's, and in some cases globals. I'd like to make using magic on a strategic level a more viable option.At 10 gems I think there was no serious use of fires from afar; certainly not in the mid game.

[quantum_mechani]

Here is my 2 cents on the issue:

I still think having CB can lead to confusion (talking about CB 'flavors' rather than actually different mods). In particular it would be nice if you'd start with your own whateveryourmodname 1.00 rather than having one apparently added on to the current CB version. I do understand I share some blame with the confusion, having left some largish bugs in the last CB version, but hopefully the confusion (and bugs) can be eliminated when I release a new version soon.

As for some the specific changes brought up here, several have specific reasons they were nor included in CB. Old age ranges I considerer entirely in the department of IW's thematic call. In particular they have made clear Abysia ages are as they intended them.

The change out of the list that strikes me as oddest though is lowering the cost on seeking arrow. I do not think I have seen a game with air nations where this was not put to huge use. The obvious use is early game where taking out mages and people leading troops can utterly change the tide of a war. But it has an arguably even deadlier side. First just a few of them can make sure to give enemy SCs a chest wound- usually a death sentence in itself for SC vulnerable to it. And more than this, given enough gems and mages it can kill even the best equipped and best chassied SCs. Admittedly this is less efficient than mind hunting , but given the low tech, it's many other uses, and the fact very few scs will have the equipment to counter it, it's already an awfully powerful spell.

I'd also point out that by making early artillery like fires from afar and seeking arrow cheaper you are giving giant nations an even larger leg up.

[chrispedersen]

Rather than continue to hijaak a thread, I moved my response here; so the first points are not directly in answer to this thread.

First, I originally called it cCBM because I considered it a variation of what QM did and I wanted to give him credit.

I have discussed the mod a couple of times with QM; he said he did not mind me making the mod, but he and llama asked that I name it something else. Llama suggested ChrisCBM so that is what I did, per request.

As for advertising, you are right: I am trying to promote interest in the mod; and trying to get people to look at it and consider it as an option for games. But also to consider the changes, and the reasons for them.

For example the most recent changes are removing a lot of old age tags. But it was a minor point in a list of points that were otherwise quite topical to EA-Arcocephale.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
As for this thread:

Interesting comment QM: Do you think the boost to giant nations is bigger than the boost to fire nations?

Also, Absolutely I will defer on the questions of version numbers. It would be funny to go back to version one, and cause confusion. How about I use 2.0 for the next one?
As for the name, at this point I would happily take suggestions.

I do like calling it a balance mod - for much the reasons you did originally. I don't like putting my name on it - it does seem like bragging. The only thing I can think of now is Balance2.0 but considering the firestorm of protest, I'm going to wait for comment.

[llamabeast]

Yeah, I shouldn't have suggested ChrisCBM actually, that was obviously not the best plan. Sorry about that Chris.

I think Balance2.0 isn't a great idea either (it implies its more balanced than everything that's gone before). Maybe just come up with a random word? Obsidian? Tangerine? (They're serious suggestions, lots of famous mods for other games have odd names.)

Also, are you sure you really need your own mod chris?

[Endoperez]

Stone Soup, or some variation thereof, would be a fine name.

I think it's worthwhile to have at least the old age mod independent of the rest of your mod, because that's something that some people might want to use with normal CB even if they disagreed with your other changes. It does not compete with Quantum's CB on mechanical level.

It might be worthwhile to mention the whys of your changes as well as the whats in your readme.

- Great Bull bugfix (remove Son of Fenris stats)
- LA Agartha Blindfighter bugfix (remove Air magic)
- Seeking Arrow, Fires from Afar made cheaper (to make rituals more useful in the strategic level)

... and so on.

I am wary of your change to Seeking Arrow, but I like your reasons for changing it. I wouldn't mind seeing more arcane bombardment-style magics in the game. What about making Fires From Afar scale with caster level? Basically, anything that has a good chance of taking out mages is useful, but things that mostly target units are more rare. Spells that cause unrest are used to lock research centers and Wolven Winter is a staple for Cold nations, but Melancholy could use a boost, and Ravens' Feast...

Can Ravens' Feast be given a nice #secondspell effect? Undead reanimation, additional gem generation, second Ravens' Feast, summoning some ethereal hawks (like the Jomon summons, what are they called... I guess they're in the progress page list, WHOA! I'll have to post THAT somewhere...)

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Stone Soup, or some variation thereof, would be a fine name.

I think it's worthwhile to have at least the old age mod independent of the rest of your mod, because that's something that some people might want to use with normal CB even if they disagreed with your other changes. It does not compete with Quantum's CB on mechanical level.

It might be worthwhile to mention the whys of your changes as well as the whats in your readme.

- Great Bull bugfix (remove Son of Fenris stats)
- LA Agartha Blindfighter bugfix (remove Air magic)
- Seeking Arrow, Fires from Afar made cheaper (to make rituals more useful in the strategic level)

... and so on.

I am wary of your change to Seeking Arrow, but I like your reasons for changing it. I wouldn't mind seeing more arcane bombardment-style magics in the game. What about making Fires From Afar scale with caster level? Basically, anything that has a good chance of taking out mages is useful, but things that mostly target units are more rare. Spells that cause unrest are used to lock research centers and Wolven Winter is a staple for Cold nations, but Melancholy could use a boost, and Ravens' Feast...

Can Ravens' Feast be given a nice #secondspell effect? Undead reanimation, additional gem generation, second Ravens' Feast, summoning some ethereal hawks (like the Jomon summons, what are they called... I guess they're in the progress page list, WHOA! I'll have to post THAT somewhere...)

Thanks endo, will do (on the why's).


I am currently working on a spell called:

Call Jack Thaum 3. 2e1s

"Jack never got over his dislike of giants - and never figured out the mage that sold him the magic beans was a member of the Shadow Seer league."

What Call Jack does, is summon a remote indepentent commander (Jack). Jack comes equipped with a magic harp (giant sleep), and three magic beans. He's lucky and stealthy.

Jack when he enters combat casts Gift of Heavens (1). Which chains to Gift of Heavens (2). Which chains "kill caster".

Sadly, so far its killing the guy who summons jack - which I haven't figured out *at all*. And has the chance of leaving a harp. Soo my next test was adding ritual of returning, and then kill caster. Thats what I'm working on now. It has a chance of giving you a harp, I guess... so the next attempt will be sending him to the inferno, if I can figure out how to copy that effect.

But the idea is to have a bombardment spell that actually *can* kill giants. I couldn't figure a way to create the remote effect I wanted directly, I invented Jack.

I guess you really could say I don't know Jack = ). Sides, I like the opportunities for puns.

The other thing I'm working on is Assassins!
I find the current assassins almost completely pointless. Sooo I've come up with a bunch of thematic assassins.

LA Ermor is shade that can move through the shadow plane and hence has a huge move. Ctis has a skelly spammer. Bandar log has recruitable everywhere monkeys with pearls of vengeance. Mictlan gets special sacred summons, in battle. Ulm gets a bunch of antimagic weapons etc. Tien chi gets an ancestor vessel assassin... etc. Someone else comes equipped with bane venom charms.

Again the idea is to make assassination a more useful tool, and again provide a boost to some of the weaker nations

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Jim, I can't understand your point.

What?

Well some parts, like the Old Age, QM has a firm and understandable stance, and isn't going to change his mind.

Some other parts, are easily defined (bugfixes, etc).

It just seemed that some other changes, might be more easily conveyed by simply having the mod available, and saying "I tweaked this", and the actual mod could be skimmed over, and a greater level of detail conveyed more easily than describing it point by point - with the added benefit that the code is right there, so any snippets that QM chose to adopt could be copy/pasted over, and done.


But I was just adding that it is just one more reason that it makes more sense to have a separate mod that is compatible with CBM, rather than one that includes and is competitive with CBM.


So how about EBM (Enhanced Balance Mod) or BMP (Balance Mod Plus)? Since it's intended to use the whole of CBM, but has additional changes.....