Mod: Brazen Benevolence (Bronze Armors)

[analytic_kernel]

What whiplash says about mineral availability is quite true (and is one of the notes I put in the README). Historically, most bronze-making involved trade to get tin or copper, as they were often not available in the same region. One has no such problem with unalloyed iron, of course.

Llama, iron is indeed not as dense as bronze, and hence lighter, but not by a huge factor. I felt that some of the encumbrance penalties on bronze armors were exaggerated from a realism standpoint. Making those penalties more reasonable has the effect of making mobility on some units more reasonable, IMO. In vanilla, a Myrmidon has only 5 AP. With the mod, he has 7 AP - still less than indie heavy infantry, but enough to get an extra square of movement per round, which makes a tangible difference.

Steel, an iron alloy, is harder than bronze, and it may be that some of the armors I adjusted their bronze counterparts against are intended to be steel, as Maraxus suggests. Endo makes a good point about steel possibly being anachronistic for the EA. I do note that EA Ulm is called the "Enigma of Steel" though, but perhaps that is a figurative rather than literal title.

Maraxus, I did think about whether we might be comparing bronze to steel rather than iron. The armor pairings I came up with were as follows:

• Iron Cap - Bronze Cap
• Plate Cuirass - Bronze Cuirass
• Plate Hauberk - Bronze Hauberk
• Scale Mail Cuirass - Bronze Scale Cuirass
• Scale Mail Hauberk - Bronze Scale Hauberk

I guess that one could argue that Half Helmet (or somesuch) actually matches the plate armors and scale mails, rather than the Iron Cap, which would then be a stray without an accompanying family of armor. But, basically I started by comparing cap to cap, and then built armor families around each.

I'm guessing that some of the difficulty of this thread stems from the traditional bronze -> iron -> steel progression found in games. Yeah, steel pretty much kicks gluteals, but there are actually trade-offs between iron and bronze. From what I have read, the historical transition between bronze and iron seems to have had less to do with hardness and more to do with availability and metal-working technology.

[llamabeast]

That sounds like a good answer to me, analytic - thanks. I had always assumed that bronze was a bit rubbish, like copper (only not as rubbish as copper of course).

[Sombre]

Do your thesis work!

-cleave-

[analytic_kernel]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

I had always assumed that bronze was a bit rubbish, like copper (only not as rubbish as copper of course).

Agreed on the copper; I guess if you are just entering the Chalcolithic or Eneolithic, then it probably looks quite appealing. But, if I start claiming that copper is really misunderstood and is actually the next big thing, then feel free to nail me for trolling.

[llamabeast]

Do your thesis work!

-cleave-

Okay! I'm starting now.

[Aezeal]

no I'm sure you'll read this too. Listen to Sombre!

[llamabeast]

Aaah!

[Scarlioni]

I think the suggestion to modify the properties of bronze armor would match the game. My understanidng or bronze is as follows.

Bronze is made from copper and tin with some arsenic thrown in. In fact copper was alloyed with arsenic before tin. I believe this was because arsenic appeared naturally in/near the early copper exploitation. Tin almost is almost invaribly found separately from and usually a good distance from copper.

Bronze also enjoys the advantage of being able to be cast, and your forge doenst need to be as hot. In Dominions 3 terms I would think Bronze would be more expensive than iron because of the need fot imports, but would cost fewer resources due to the casting process.

I know less about iron. Involves hotter forges and much hammering, but since your working with only one element no expensive importing. As iron is repeatedly reheated (hotter is better) and hammered you start getting to steel, as in pattern welding.

In game terms I'd give the following modifiers to Bronze over the corresponding Iron items.
+1AP +1enc Costs more gold but fewer resources.

For small things like a cap there'd be no difference between iron and broanze performance wise. The word cap brings to mind "cheap" and "incomplete coverage" as well as "light" and "cheaply mass produced" so I'd say

I'd say something like a corthian style helmet would be more equated to a great helm.

Just my two cents.

[chrispedersen]

My ownly contribution to the debate will likely be controversial.

Rather than decrease the encumbrance, I suggest you unset the metal flag.

Not perfect, but it would allow such spells as ironbane, and rusting mist etc, *not* to affect the unit.

I believe that would be more appropriate.

[analytic_kernel]

Originally Posted by Scarlioni

Bronze is made from copper and tin with some arsenic thrown in. In fact copper was alloyed with arsenic before tin. I believe this was because arsenic appeared naturally in/near the early copper exploitation.

Early bronze was arsenic bronze. However, alloying copper with tin produces harder armor, and I think it was this alloy which was used for armoring after it was developed.

Originally Posted by Scarlioni

Bronze also enjoys the advantage of being able to be cast, and your forge doenst need to be as hot. In Dominions 3 terms I would think Bronze would be more expensive than iron because of the need fot imports, but would cost fewer resources due to the casting process.

Well, you can cast iron too; that's what "cast iron" is.

In the readme with this mod, there is a brief musing about whether resource gathering costs should be considered as part of the rcost or not. If one wants to consider them, then that could lead down a slippery slope about whether the cost of making the chain for chain mail is being properly accounted for...

For me, the question is whether forging iron or casting bronze is cheaper, and whether this should be reflected in any rcost changes for bronze armors. Game play considerations also enter the picture, and one can probably rationalize adjustments in whatever manner necessary to satisfy them. (I.e., one can find a way to justify penalizing something if it starts to seem too good.)