Orientalism in Dominions

[Kristoffer O]

Of course I'm orientalistic. It goes with political incorrectness. Blood sacrifices demant an orientalistic perspective to work out.

Unfortunately I do not have much background on how the orient percieved their mythic west, apart from the concept of the buddhist western paradise , so I had few opportunities to be occidentalistic.

Vanir and Jotuns are among the earlier nations in the game though, so I can't claim to be entirely etnocentric, even though I try.

[Gregstrom]

Jarkko, I don't think Omnirizon's point was intended as criticism in that way.

I would say that in the EA at least, the nordic nations have less human recruits than Yomi do. It's all Vanir or giants.

There are a total of 7 human-led races in the EA, at a quick count. 5 (Arco, Ermon, Ulm, Marverni and Mictlan) are Occidental - TC and Sauro aren't. 3 (Tir, Vanheim, Helheim) are led by very humanoid types - all are Occidental.
Abysia, Agartha, Fomoria, Niefelheim and Hinnom are pretty much human-shaped, if definitely non-human. 2 Occidental, 2 fictional (place them where you will) and 1 from the Orient.

I see 9 non-human EA nations: Caelum, C'tis, Pan, Kailasa, Yomi, Atlantis, R'lyeh, Oceania, Lanka. 2 fictional, 2 Occidental, 5 Oriental.

So by the numbers there does appear to be a bit of a bias. Some of this bias, though, may not be from any Orientalism on the part of JK and KO.

I don't know for sure what order the nations were created in, but I'd guess that the more human and humanoid nations were created first as they generally represent the mythologies and history most westerners are aware of.

After that, I suspect the desire to create new and different nations pushed the search for mythologies further afield at the same time as a desire arose to create something more than 'just another humanoid sprite'.

[HoneyBadger]

I understand the concepts you're throwing around, Omnirizon, but-to coin a metaphor-I wasn't sure what you were aiming them at...

So thank you for atleast elaborating

I think that you're correct in some ways, that Dom3 is created from a Eurocentric viewpoint. Ofcourse it is-the Devs are Europeans. As far as Occidental Nations being human, vs non-human Orientals, yes you're correct in that, but you're not mentioning Machaka (Africa) or Mictlan (South America). If Egypt can be arguably Oriental, then certainly more so the Ashanti. And stranger-far more "Other" than *any* Asian country, the Aztecs, who didn't come into contact with any known Europeans, through *any* means, until the 16th century. Either one of them could have been anthropomorphized. Mictlan, for instance, has every opportunity to go fully alien, but never does.

The subject of colonialism interests me, Omnirizon, in part, because of the mods I'm making; and in part, that interest is the reason I'm making those mods:

Aksum (Ethiopia), ofcourse, belongs to the Christian hegemony, and is one of the oldest of all centers of Christianity, but is very distinct from Europe, America, the Middle East, etc. It's also, naturally, a part of Colonial history-in this case, a would-be Italian colony that defeated their would-be conquerors, drove them out of the country in shame, and then sued for peace immediately afterward.

Again, very different and distinct from preconceptions of colonial Africa--they're already Christians, and have been since around the 4th century AD. Infact, it's the second oldest country, after Armenia, to officially become Christian, and it's quite possibly the oldest country-in terms of human settlement-in the entire world. When set upon, they defeated their European enemies, and retained their National identity. Thirdly, they have a very long tradition of female rulership and political-even military-power. So on one hand, a culture very recogniseable to Europe, but on the other, one completely alien in many ways-but still capable of holding it's own.

Ammon, on the other hand, represents a broader, but much more mythological base-a hypothetical "last stand" of indiginous culture against colonial powers (aka the other LA Nations). They're a brutish Nation, with undead and demonic units galore. They practice blood sacrifice and cannibalism, and have a lower than Late Era average technological base, so they're arguably no better or brighter than any other Late Era Nation, and they were (eventually) specifically designed not to be, but they *are* wildly different, in various ways, from the other Nations they're set against. One way I wanted to show this was to give them a thriving giant population. They're completely non-Jotun giants (they're part demon, and worship the stars and the dead), but they arm themselves and conduct themselves along basic Jotunish/giantish lines. Defeating them-LA Hinnom aside-means no more giants in the world. On the other hand, they have access to more gems than other LA Nations-to represent the raw resources of an undeveloped, untamed continent. They also draw from one of the oldest of human cultures-Egypt.

Neither one was created from a Eurocentric viewpoint-I'm an American-but neither was written with "political correctness" or realism, or even historical accuracy as a goal. They're simply personal homages and nods to various cultures, filtered through my own concepts, and preconceptions. Representative icons, just like the other Dom3 Nations.

They both include humans, but they include humans who aren't necessarily acting all that well, and Aksum, infact, includes 1 unit which is partly based on a racist anthropomorphization that Ethiopian Christians inflicted on Ethiopian Jews-that they were capable of transforming into hyenas, because it was believed that all blacksmiths were were-hyenas (being a blacksmith was hereditary), which was a common profession for Ethiopian Jews.

I don't appologise for that use-it makes the Nation more interesting, it educates about the culture, and it's a valid, if immoral, superstition. And racism isn't the whole story-Ethiopians believed that *every* Blacksmith was a were-hyena, not just the Jewish ones. Culture isn't, after all, just the best, most noble aspects of humanity, it's also us at our worst, and us at our most mediochre, and everything in between.

I think it would be hard for anyone to create 50 + Nations *without* doing what the Devs have done-namely, filtering them through their own concepts, and preconceptions, and coming up with some generic themes. It's not so much a Eurocentric, or Occidental (opposed to Oriental) worldview, as it simply is a human factor. We all come from somewhere, and we all view the world from that place. I think the fact that the Devs introduce these cultures, and their myths and spirituality, in depth and to a large audience, says a lot more about how they look at the world than any fantastical "European conspiracy" to subjugate the world.

For a more clear example, compare EA R'lyeh Aboleths to LA R'lyeh. They're both extremely "other", but in terms of power, they're complete opposites. And while there may be some lines drawn between East and West, they're not power-lines.

Infact, considering that Kristoffer is a teacher of religion, and considering that religion *is* one of the greatest dividers between so-called "Eastern" and "Western" thought, I would say if anything, it's simply a facet of his training and mindset, which has been influenced to a greater degree than most of us by that East vs West division.

And I think, considering Yomi, that that's much more a Cinocentric view of a Nation than anything the West needs take responsibility for. China viewed itself as the center of the world-and outside that center lived barbarians, bandits, demons, and giants. I'm reading the "Tales of the Tea-House" epic, and it mentions a very Yomi-like nation of demons and giants to the North.

As far as India goes, that-if anything-is a fine example of taking a literary concept, in this case the works of Rudyard Kipling, and translating them into the game, as a set of Nations. I don't find that irresponsible, Eurocentric, or strange, in that Atlantis comes mainly from the mind of H.P. Lovecraft, another example of a literary "model".

Yes, it would be nice to have some more Nations based on historical India. Somebody's going to have to create those Nations, though.

If anything, I'd like to have a Native American (or even Canadian) Nation-that's one of the few areas of the world that doesn't have in-game representation. But even if they made it about "Vinland", Skraelings, and Lief Ericson's adventures, that would still, to me, be a valid representation of America,

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Yep, here in north we are all giants or dwarfs. Also, couldn't help noticing all those vampires, golems and living statues when I have visited Central Europe.


Or perhaps, I don't know, the devs got ideas from local myths, and instead of blind discrimination, as is subtly suggested in this thread, the playable nations are based on those myths, invented by the local people themselves? Maybe the OP has gone slightly over the top in his political correctness? Maybe he is one of the people who thinks "robbery" is a bad word and should be replaced by "self-iniative caused by an economically challenging situation on personal level"?

Actually I didn't subtly suggest anything at all. I outright said it.

Vampires/Golems/Statues simply appearing in the game are one thing, entire nations crafted around themes of "unhumaness" is another. Their is a subtle but consistent caesura between Occidental and Orient inspired nations in this game.

If you read my post, you will see that I am not accusing the developers of discrimination, racism, or any other such thing. I'm not even accusing KO of deliberately crafting nations based upon some myth or misrepresentation. I'm only pointing out the effects of what we call "Orientalism" on KOs work. Notice this:

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

To have it reflected in a game like Dominions is only a performance of Dominions "Europeaness". The availability of a mythicized Orient is only too perfect material for a game like Dominions though.

Take for example that the imagery of Egypt, that shows prominently in the themes of Dominions, is a result of European intellectuals and artists travelling to Egypt and generating art and academic knowledge on Egypt. This IS Orientalism. YOU take that imagery for granted, as natural. But imagine what kind of imagery would the world have of Egypt today had not European artists and intellectuals fell upon Egypt in throngs during the period of European colonization and produced all this imagery and knowledge regarding it? If Europe had not told the world "This is Egypt", how would Egypt have represented itself to the world?

The myths that comprise the imagery of Europe in dominions is built from, as you so correctly pointed out (and thank you for it), from _local_ European myths. Europeans saying what Europe and its myths are. Egyptian myths are actually representations of Egypt by Europeans. All the imagery you have of Egypt, the Arab world, and India are the works of Orientalism. The Orient NEVER had the chance to represent itself, because Europe did it for them. This in turn actually began to shape how the Orient would represent itself. Any "true" Orient is completely irretrievable.


As for being PC. The critiques from Orientalism and Postcol theory is anything but. You think it is PC to tell someone that their conception of history and most of the world is fabricated? Postcol theory actually emphasizes _difference_ over diversity, noting how calls for diversity ultimately benefit the dominant groups. Postcol thinkers like Fanon claim that violence against the West, as a group, is the only means of escaping the yokes of a colonial past. Being "PC" is actually part of the problem to Postcol theory. It is unabashedly rebellious, violent (even if only figuratively so), and anti-theraputic.


Sombre:
The above post should be referencing you too. There is nothing ignored or emphasized to reach my goal. You cannot deny that the imagery of the Oriental nations in the game is based upon the effects of Orientalism, because Orientalism is what has produced this mythic and romantic imagery. If we appropriate that just living in the West, a game like dominions which is fueled by myth isn't going to actively resist it. And without actively resisting Orientalism it becomes hard to make humaness out of it; because it isn't based upon humaness. All of the nations based upon myths in this game use mostly mythic figurines (notice how the ones based upon actual European peoples/tribes/cultures/empires have a lot of actual humans); and the Oriental nations are no exception. It's much easier to make monkeys fit to the irrationalized imagery of India than actual humans.


EDIT:
Oh and Honeybadger I agree that we should continue to use this imagery in a game like Dominions. Dominions is an _ironic_ game, that pokes at history. It gives a deadpan delivery of a zealously religous Marignon right next to an obviously India based nation of romanticized imagery... and monkeys. It's the same kind of resistance to hegemonic narratives that we see from a lot of more underground art that presents itself with a sort of ludic front which hides a deeper and more transgressive rebelliousness (I'm thinking, off the top of my head, of Peaches and her music). It is anti-PC, anti-theraputic, and doesn't attempt to glorify anything. This is the kind of stuff we need more of. I guarantee that those few trolls who drop into the forums raising cane on the "political incorrectness" of Dominions are well grounded and ultimately supportive of the hegemonic western narrative.

[Alibenbaba]

It's much easier to make monkeys fit to the irrationalized imagery of India than actual humans.

Ah, here you have failed.

The nations needs diversity - its much more interesting to have a nation based around monkeys than nation #44 based around humans - not easier. If there is a fitting myth, why not exploit it - if that myth originates from european demonization or local superstitions (don't all myths stem from someone demonizing something?) or literature just isn't the point and should not be.

But I thank you for your original post + explanations, I actually like to think about where myths originate. You have pointed out something I have not thought about yet, so your post did achieve its goal I guess

[Ylvali]

One complication in trying to make a less orientalistic approach to for example Japan or China is that orientalism is now a fairly central part of Japanese/Chinese self-image. Movies from china and Japan for example, does little to challenge our orientalistic perspective. Akira kurosawa fits with Jomon like a glove (save the ninjas). Could explain why Dominions is popular in Japan (at least I stumbled upon a japanese dominions fora) Same can be said about China and mythological flicks like Grouching tiger, hero, etc...

The opening ceremony of the olympic games also streamlines perfectly with most every prejudice I have of china. What was emphasized there and is missing in Tien´chi would be chinas past scientific and technological advantage. MA TC could have some kind of explosives for example.

Note that I deliberatly make examples of big commersialized stuff. Of course there is a vast source of different perspectives in china. I just mean that those perspectives aren´t really infuential compared to the post-colonial, even there. If dominions was made in china I´sure it would be very different, but not at all so sure it would be less orientalistic.

Bandar would be more problematic though. It hardly reflects the extremely varied and fragmentized indian culture. On the other hand india could make for a number of dom3 nations with all its different cultures.

One thing I miss is a mongolian theme with shamanism, sheep and horses roaming the great plains. Barbarian kings don´t really fill the spot. I guess there is a bit of the flavour in bogarus...

Bandar exile recruits in certain nations (bogarus for example) to represent gypsies would be interesting as well.

As would more diverse and historical african themes.

But hey, I´d still say Dominions fairly exeptional for a computer game in it´s approach to non european cultures. And I mean that in a positive way.

Very interestin discussion BTW.

Ylvali

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Ylvali

Grouching tiger

Starring Oscar!

[TheMenacer]

I think the problem with this is that, while you are absolutely right that the eastern nations are definitely represented via a western lens, so is pretty much ever other nation. I mean look at a nation like Man, they're a highly romanticized notion of medieval England replete with their own (arguably) nonhuman past in the various faerie peoples. Granted, many of these nations aren't nonhuman, so there's something that could probably be said about that, but you can hardly claim that even nations with the veneer of the familiar aren't highly exoticized (or however you spell that). I think the only one that isn't might be Marignon, if only because anyone with even the slightest experience with western history is going to instantly recognize the Christian Fanaticism/Spanish Inquisition themes and there is only so much a developer can play with something like that.

[Poopsi]

Originally Posted by TheMenacer

I think the problem with this is that, while you are absolutely right that the eastern nations are definitely represented via a western lens, so is pretty much ever other nation. I mean look at a nation like Man, they're a highly romanticized notion of medieval England replete with their own (arguably) nonhuman past in the various faerie peoples. Granted, many of these nations aren't nonhuman, so there's something that could probably be said about that, but you can hardly claim that even nations with the veneer of the familiar aren't highly exoticized (or however you spell that). I think the only one that isn't might be Marignon, if only because anyone with even the slightest experience with western history is going to instantly recognize the Christian Fanaticism/Spanish Inquisition themes and there is only so much a developer can play with something like that.

Anyone familiar with western history would know that "pop. culture images" hardly are realistic representations of western history, or nations.

On the other hand, popular culture images of nations, cultures, and mythologies are a great way to make familiar themes for a fantasy computer game, without having any pretension of it bearing any relationship to actual events except by coincidence.

[HoneyBadger]

Oh!

And another source of so-called "Egypt-as-Oriental anthropomorphism" are the works of Robert E. Howard, in that his 'King Kull' series, which feature a Nation of reptilian/serpentine. Nothing "Eurocentric" about that one, he was American too.

Plus, I personally disagree-even with your Egyptian friend-in the idea that Egypt is somehow the Orient. That just doesn't jibe with me, even if I were to accept the whole "Orient vs Occident" motif.