Map: New map: Hairmap

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by VALIS

I understand I didn't have to make the woodcut. Found art somehow seems to still be regarded as valid in the art community, even if the artist didn't design or build the piece themselves. It's the finding of and the displaying of that give it value. I know you mean it didn't require *much* graphical work. There was some minor work required.

I don't see that you actually did anything other than drop white dots on a random image. I don't care about your 'found art' waffle because it'a a fricking game map. Besides it's amusing that you're quite happy to call that 'found art' and even describe it as 'creative' yet in the very same post deride people for using copyrighted material and existing fantasy maps. I guess the difference is you're an 'artist' right?

Personally I think the difference is their maps are actually going to be played and bring further enjoyment to the community.

I didn't say it was easy.

Yes you did. It was more or less the first thing you said. Right before you started knocking everyone elses efforts.

Where are the original *fantasy* maps, is all I'm wondering. A battle across the planes, or the clouds, or in the treetops. None of that, just 'copyrighted map/copyrighted map/map from an older game/map from an older game/map made with crappy mapping program'.

You basically just described several of the maps in the map list and map/mod browser. There are a few with floating islands / sky provinces. There are others with provinces at the top of huge yggdrasil world tree style things. And there are plenty with the concept of planes of elements, light, darkness, magic etc.

I'm not slamming them all. :-) Some are quite nice.

Yes you are. In the paragraph immediately preceeding this very quote and by implication in this very quote itself. It's pretty obnoxious. If you want anyone to give your 'work' even the slightest chance I suggest you knock it off.

I just don't understand why I can increase the map total available on this site by 5% in one day years after the release date of this game. :-)

Probably because most people try to take time making maps that will actually be played and enjoyed. You certainly haven't added 5% to the volume of quality maps that will see play.

[VALIS]

Originally Posted by Ballbarian

I was actually glad that you had edited the initial post in what I took as an effort to take my advice and tone down the sour statements as related to the community contributed maps.

Regardless, I appreciate and look forward to your future contributions and hope that all of this does not dissuade you.

It was taking your advice. I had hoped to hit a nerve, just not the one I hit.
Thanks.
-Campbell

[VALIS]

First off, Nice of you to convert the Dominions 2 maps. Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Sombre

I don't see that you actually did anything other than drop white dots on a random image.

Well, if you downloaded and opened the .map file, or loaded the map and tried a game, you would find that each country has resources and neighbors to provide a tension between easily defensible less useful territories, richer territories with more accessibility, and a variety of choke points. That wasn't done by just dropping white dots.

Also: the image wasn't random, it was selected to provide a truly different option, and maybe encourage someone else to make a map more creative than some trees and a lake. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Sombre

I don't care about your 'found art' waffle because it'a a fricking game map. Besides it's amusing that you're quite happy to call that 'found art' and even describe it as 'creative' yet in the very same post deride people for using copyrighted material and existing fantasy maps. I guess the difference is you're an 'artist' right?

No. Sorry I was unclear. The two differences are my images are public domain and the images I am using are not trying to represent 'plain jane' traditional land/water/tree maps. More examples will be forthcoming.

Originally Posted by Sombre

Personally I think the difference is their maps are actually going to be played and bring further enjoyment to the community.

Well, I'm playing my map. It's making me happy. I, uh, have web space and can post my maps there if you'd rather I stop contributing.

How is it you know those maps aren't going to be played? Most people with negative things to say about them clearly haven't booted them up and played a game in them to provide criticism. I'm ok with that.

Originally Posted by Sombre

Yes you did. It was more or less the first thing you said. Right before you started knocking everyone elses efforts.

Yeah, I deleted that soon after I posted it, once I realized what people were doing. I understand it takes a lot of work.

Originally Posted by Sombre

You basically just described several of the maps in the map list and map/mod browser. There are a few with floating islands / sky provinces. There are others with provinces at the top of huge yggdrasil world tree style things. And there are plenty with the concept of planes of elements, light, darkness, magic etc.

I have some qualms with the undefined terms above. "several" "few" and "plenty"

First, there are only 56 maps or so in the list. Thats about two a month since the games release. I guess that I was a bit confused about that number because the size of the community was presented to me as much larger then it appears to actually be. Second, I misunderstood both what seemed to me the logical way to create these maps (the way the dominions map editor seems to be set up) with the way the vast majority of people are actually creating these maps. More on that in a minute.

Originally Posted by Sombre

Yes you are. In the paragraph immediately preceeding this very quote and by implication in this very quote itself. It's pretty obnoxious. If you want anyone to give your 'work' even the slightest chance I suggest you knock it off.

Well, then to clear it up; There are less than a dozen maps on the list that I like. But there *are* those that I like. :-)

What I want is more people to be making maps. I'm doing my maps because no one is making the kind of interesting fantasy maps I want to play on. Also: You are not the gatekeeper of whether anyone uses my maps or not. That's up to the individual.

If by knock it off you mean stop making the maps I want to play on, or continuing to explain what I *am* looking for in these maps - I don't plan on stopping any of those.

Originally Posted by Sombre

Probably because most people try to take time making maps that will actually be played and enjoyed. You certainly haven't added 5% to the volume of quality maps that will see play.

Opinions are like. . . One of those things that everyone has. . . what was it again? ;-p

Thanks for your comments. You seem a bit torqued by mine. If there's some truth to them lets focus on that and get some more maps out there.
-Campbell

[1] The Dominions map editor is set up to take *any* graphic that is in the form of a .tga or RBG type file. This is different from other games where they have a specific format for their map. The information about the map that is necessary is contained in a text file. This setup seems to encourage creating neat maps in two specific ways.

(A) taking a pre-existing images (old maps, paintings, woodblocks, photographs etc.) and turning them into dominions maps

(B) Creating maps or using maps in 'real world media' and then digitizing that work, and turning them into dominions maps

Neither of these things seems to occur (with a handful of exceptions).

What *mostly* seems to happen is non-professional people take complicated computer design and graphic tools to pixel by pixel creating maps that ape traditional fantasy game maps. The editor was set up to be much more flexible than that. Dominions doesn't have a 'tile' or 'template' map, because it asks for something greater! If that is the kind of thing you want, the game will provide that for you, in endless sequence with the random map generator.

The (A) and (B) technique to me seem to be much easier than the third method that most people use. Hence my deleted comment about it being easy.

Comments welcome. :-)

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by VALIS

Well, if you downloaded and opened the .map file, or loaded the map and tried a game, you would find that each country has resources and neighbors to provide a tension between easily defensible less useful territories, richer territories with more accessibility, and a variety of choke points. That wasn't done by just dropping white dots.

I did open it. I didn't try a game on it because looking it over quickly told me I didn't want to. Normally I'd stop at seeing the thumbnail, but I figured it might not be representative in this case.

Well, I'm playing my map. It's making me happy. I, uh, have web space and can post my maps there if you'd rather I stop contributing.

I hope you'll make good maps in the future, but I hope that of various people who don't act the way you do.

How is it you know those maps aren't going to be played? Most people with negative things to say about them clearly haven't booted them up and played a game in them to provide criticism. I'm ok with that.

Let's call it an educated guess. You could take a poll though if you wanted. "Would you add this map to your regular play maps?"

Whether people do or don't isn't my concern, I'm just saying from what I know of the community, they won't.

If by knock it off you mean stop making the maps I want to play on, or continuing to explain what I *am* looking for in these maps - I don't plan on stopping any of those.

No I mean lose the superior attitude and don't bash what other people have done, especially when you're new and have contributed very little. I would think that's obvious. But maybe not to you. You're coming across as one of these guys who turns up and gets a negative reaction from everyone and still doesn't see what he did wrong.

[Edratman]

One mans vote: map is way too wierd for me to try.

[Alderanas]

In my opinion those rather bland boring maps as you put it are actually very nice and entertaining. I dont really see the fun of having a huge army of abysians fighting for a scrap of hair when they could be fighting for actual land. I guess i am one of those people that kinda likes maps to make some since with who i am playing as.

[Gregstrom]

It's not well-suited to me either, but I like the fact that maps like this are being made. I feel it adds to the game somehow, and it's nice to see an alternative approach being made to map creation.

[Aezeal]

Well it's certainly not a map I'd play on, I happen to like playing on a map that resembles something you would want to conquer with your troops. Acting like lice fighting for a head isn't quite the same.

So I can't agree with Greg and say that I like tha fact these maps are made really... the fact you are going to create more maps is nice though.. always nice to have stuff being created.. if I don't like the rest you do then there is no loss to me and maybe others can use it.

Personally I'd prefer if you focus on say.. a map of a galaxy with planets to conquer (as an addition to the dominions 3000 mod (look it up ))

[okiN]

Originally Posted by VALIS

What *mostly* seems to happen is non-professional people take complicated computer design and graphic tools to pixel by pixel creating maps that ape traditional fantasy game maps. The editor was set up to be much more flexible than that.

Did it not occur to you that people actually enjoy this? That they do it to amuse themselves do it to amuse themselves, and to learn how to use these programs? Never mind the fact that some of us might actually like the look of them. I guess we just can't all be as professional and creative as your highly esteemed self.

Originally Posted by VALIS

Dominions doesn't have a 'tile' or 'template' map, because it asks for something greater! If that is the kind of thing you want, the game will provide that for you, in endless sequence with the random map generator.

Wow. That's pretty dense. Comparing user-made maps to the RMG doesn't really say much for your understanding of how this game works. Your hair map, I take it, is an example of this "something greater" you speak of?

Originally Posted by VALIS

The (A) and (B) technique to me seem to be much easier than the third method that most people use. Hence my deleted comment about it being easy.

The way you started this thread, setting yourself up like some great hero bringing light to the people living in darkness and drudgery speaks volumes of both your arrogance and your ignorance. Believe it or not, we were fully aware of this option - most people would probably have been able to draw a few conclusions from the fact that, despite said knowledge, so many maps were still hand-made and simple in style.

Let me break it down for you.

I generally like playing on maps that look like maps.

I generally like said maps to have terrain features appear on them, preferably representative of what the map contains.

It makes the map accessible and clear, and the hand-drawn details add variety and make it look individual. Now, you've made it clear that this is not good enough for you. That's all right, you're entitled to your opinion. But you do come across as a bit of a git when you make it so abundantly clear at every turn that you think your opinions and tastes are vastly superior to those of any and all others.

Guess what? This creative revelation of yours - "carefully selecting" an image from the internet and making it into a map is, to me, a lot more boring and unimaginative than drawing one of these "plain jane" water and earth maps by yourself. If you're unable to see the differences between these variations on a theme, that sad lack of vision is your problem, not ours.

[Tichy]

I played some turns on it. It's odd. There's something interesting about not knowing where anything else is at first (no 'world map' feel to it), but it gets a bit grating when you have to click through your own territory to remember what connects to what, especially since a lot of the connections are counter intuitive. (I'm guessing the connections are intended to evoke strands and follicles?)

A balance problem: if you make the "tips" of the hair wasteland, farmland up top, then start points will be all out of whack. Whoever gets placed in the top is at a great advantage, income-wise, and whoever's so unfortunate to end up at the bottom probably doesn't stand a chance, because all their land is worthless.

I do think you would have gotten a better reception if you introduced these maps as something unusual and different, instead of a replacement for traditional maps that disappointed you.

I'm not convinced by these, but the idea's interesting enough to try to make in a better balanced, more user-friendly form.