Trample balance discussion

[llamabeast]

Elephants are huge. They are bigger than horses, and dogs. They're bigger than camels. Hell, I could go on listing animals they're bigger than. They're definitely pretty big.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

For some reason I seem to find that slingers do well against elephants. Maybe its a wrong impression but I still fall back to it whenever Im faced with elephants. Or maybe its just because I can put alot of shots in the air cheaply with some chance to do damage and cause a rout.

Well you're talking about SP. I don't think anyone is too worried about the power of elephants in SP. Though if you can't resist building them yourself they might make winning very boring, because the AI has absolutely no chance against them.

I wouldn't be against elephants being size 5 and mammoths 6. There are certainly numerous dom3 creatures larger than elephants, like the machaka fetish pretender for instance.

I think there are a lot of creatures with weird sizing in dom3 though. Krakens have a graphic that's like size 3 or 4 in size, but they're size 6 iirc.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Well you're talking about SP. I don't think anyone is too worried about the power of elephants in SP. Though if you can't resist building them yourself they might make winning very boring, because the AI has absolutely no chance against them.

I wouldn't be against elephants being size 5 and mammoths 6. There are certainly numerous dom3 creatures larger than elephants, like the machaka fetish pretender for instance.

I think there are a lot of creatures with weird sizing in dom3 though. Krakens have a graphic that's like size 3 or 4 in size, but they're size 6 iirc.

Hmmm, so graphics size is not automatically altered when you mod a unit size? I thought it did.

I also agree with those who feel Elephants should not be size 6. I can't imagine them being bigger than Niefel Giants (size 5)!

[DonCorazon]

Looking at trample in the grand scheme of things, I don't see nations with elephants really dominating the Victorious Nations record. In fact, when it comes to Arcos and the Bandar nations, they rarely appear, so I have difficulty understanding the motivation for changing a core mechanic that would hurt nations that already struggle. Not to take the thread off topic, but if we were focused on balance then I'd say Pythium's hydras are more of an overpowered unit for what they cost in gold and resources and looking at the big picture of national summons. My point is, yes elephants are powerful, but they provide a slight edge for nations that are in need of it, and any apparent imbalance does not seem to be reflected in the elephant nations dominating games.

[llamabeast]

I think they're just not very fun to fight. Unless you can muster paralyze or something, you're basically stuffed. I've always found them to be quite unfun for that reason.

[Xietor]

Elephants are not supposed to be "fun" to fight. If you read about historical accounts of their use in Ancient Greek times, they were a terror in battles. While Lord of the Rings battle scenes has them too big, it actually may not exaggerate the terror they cause even battle hardened troops.

Given these accounts it would be justified to give them fear. Obviously that would not be good for balance. But arcos needs its elephants. I challenge someone to play ma or la arcos and not use elephants.

If elephants are nerfed, arcos needs a better sacred. maybe a chariot with good armor, attack, and defense that does not trample. And the national summon cannot use s gems. arcos heart and soul is its s gems. a sirrush either has to be so good it is like an abomination, or it needs to cost n gems. As it is they are useless as a 10s item.

maybe if you could get 5 of them for 10s, and move them down the tree a bit. But at 10s a piece they might as well cost a 100s a piece. no one in their right mind would buy one.

Too many arcos units use spears. thematic yes. But maybe a sacred unit with a sword.
Greeks knew what swords were you know. And swords do more dmage. and 25 gold for a heart companion? they are not as good as the 15 gold units which are all i buy when i have the gold and resources.

Now this thread is not about arcos., but that is the nation most hurt by an elephant nerf. bandar log has strong nationals and good sacreds, and caelum gets cold bonus
and better attack mages.

[Edratman]

How about a new defensive formation, the square? If could have all the historical strengths and weakness of squares: great at repelling, but very vulnerable to ranged fire.

[Agema]

Firstly, just because something is bigger doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be a size bigger. A mammoth may be bigger than an elephant, but what would make a size difference is whether the mammoth has the bulk to knock an elephant out of the way. I'd suggest possibly not - a 6 foot tall man cannot reliably just knock a 5 foot tall man out of his way.

Secondly, why shouldn't Elephants be bigger than Niefel Giants? I could suggest even if a Niefel Giant were taller, it still might not have even close to the same mass as they're much thinner. Generally, it's pretty pointless second-guessing the size of many mythological creatures. Although the Egyptians made a really big sphinx statue, the sphinx was a winged lion with a human head, from which we could assume a sphinx was, well, about lion-sized. Just because there's a 100+ foot-high statue of Jesus in Rio it doesn't mean we think Jesus was 100 feet tall. Similarly, dragons vary enormously in myths. Maybe in Dominions they really are about the size of an Elephant or mammoth.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Xietor

bandar log has strong nationals

What? No it doesn't.

Agema: Completely ignoring graphics when it comes to the size of units is counter-intuitive and silly. They are there for a reason.

[Adept]

My only beefs with Trample are the automatic 1 point of damage, and the fact that one target can be trampled several times in a single turn.

Without those, I'd be quite happy. I'd still like to see my Dagon actually use the ice swords I give him too, instead of just using them to parry and fight other siz 6 critters.