End Game Summons

[HoneyBadger]

As fun as SCs are, there are so many different tactics and takes on late-game units that don't involve a bigger guy with a bigger stick, or not *just* that, and I'd really like to encourage that way of thinking, because sadly our units only go up to size 6. The SCs we have, I personally think-first of all-should be immortal, healing, etc. much more often, so that they don't go gimpy from afflictions, and secondly-should belong in the middle game, more than the endgame, with more suble, refined units/strategies coming into play that the SCs can either become incorporated into, or defeated by. The advantage of this is that those neat SCs get to stay around longer, without getting so bloated and lame that they become ridiculous.

[Lingchih]

JimMorrison said:
I think he's just saying it would behave like a chariot, being a gigantic trampling unit. But it would be different from the Gath chariot in that it has 100hp, as he said. Also, I'd imagine it's this hulking metal monstrosity that is far better armored than any other chariot, in fact it's sort of a Blacksteel War Chariot, which could be actually powered by 2 mammoths completely ensconced in the steel body of the Machine.

You have a vivid imagination. I can see them in my mind now. Kind of like a tank powered by Mammoths. With openings in the armor for the Mammoths to see forward, and arrow slots in the chariot for firing.

[Micah]

SCs aren't particularly unbalanced in terms of power, there are other distinct reasons for them being so dominant late game:

1. No upkeep. The upkeep on a viable late game army is significant, especially on top of paying for researchers. This limits nations to a small number of them at a time, whereas SCs accumulate for free until they are killed.

2. Mobility. Pretty simple. Flight and teleport/cloud trapeze are pretty much SC staples, armies are generally stuck plodding along one province at a time.

3. Non-divisibility. Aside from a couple of really bad afflictions SCs don't suffer from attrition like armies can. They generally either win or die, with an occasional retreat thrown in for flavor. Armies can get picked apart, especially with spells like rain of stones and the like.

4. Lack of logistics/not having to deal with the poop-for-brains AI gem use. Nothing beat watching my mages burn 20 gems in each of two battles in which the opposing "army" of a few leaders was killed or routed by soul slays before they even got to move. Having to supply an army is a pain even when they're not doing stupid stuff like that. SCs are pretty much fire and forget...soul vortex is usually the only buff that occasionally takes a gem for me, and that's not nearly so annoying to deal with.

In a toe-to-toe fight a well-designed army with mage support should have little trouble taking down a few SCs, they're just more expensive to maintain and harder to utilize...I don't think any nerfing really needs to be done to SCs, they're actually pretty fragile to a lot of reasonable counter strategies as it is. Mind hunt/magic duel being the most common.

[chrispedersen]

Lingchih said:

You have a vivid imagination. I can see them in my mind now. Kind of like a tank powered by Mammoths. With openings in the armor for the Mammoths to see forward, and arrow slots in the chariot for firing.

Thats exactly what I envisioned, Jim. Plus other things, I'm far to lazy to write.

[JimMorrison]

Arrow slits! I thought of that, Ulmish Crossbows could be devastating, but Dom doesn't allow ranged combat in the same turn as trampling, so it would be silly. Perhaps a ballista that you could set to fire first if you knew there were large opponents in the enemy army. Also nice would be large spikes around the base of the Machine, but as far as I know there is also no way to add bonus damage to trampling, so I opted for a sleek look. Perhaps the spikes could be worked in like some sort of a damage shield? Or we could say they kept a pot of boiling oil inside the cabin of the thing, and could spit it out of aimable tubes on the sides, so just have it behave like a 10dam Fire Shield maybe?

[MaxWilson]

Micah,

+1, insightful. SCs are all about mobility and logistics. They're pretty easy to kill *IF* you can hit them with a mage-supported army, but except for maybe Caelum no army has the mobility of an SC.

Hmm, that makes me wonder if I should try Caelum next.

-Max

[HoneyBadger]

JimMorrison: I'd just fake the trampling with a weapon that does more damage to smaller units-I mean, you're talking about a tank, if it crashes into even a big unit, they're probably atleast going to bang a knee or something!

I wouldn't do boiling oil though, because you're running on mammoth-power, and inside the big hot metal box, they're going to eventually turn into mammoth stew.

Or more likely, just get very very pissed off, which won't be pleasant for any involved parties.

[Aezeal]

The summon of Oponn I described in the malazan mod thread is nice too.. and sort of different

[JimMorrison]

HoneyBadger said:
JimMorrison: I'd just fake the trampling with a weapon that does more damage to smaller units-I mean, you're talking about a tank, if it crashes into even a big unit, they're probably atleast going to bang a knee or something!

I wouldn't do boiling oil though, because you're running on mammoth-power, and inside the big hot metal box, they're going to eventually turn into mammoth stew.

Or more likely, just get very very pissed off, which won't be pleasant for any involved parties.

Well, that couuuuld work. Would have to give it a bunch of attacks though, to simulate it really rolling through a line. Otherwise it would become a gigantic, cool looking, joke as it killed 1-2 men per round.

As far as the oil goes, imagine that inside of the steel shell, is basically just a very large chariot, so the mammoths in front, and the crew is in back. The crew could have an open top for venting the oil fire.

But to me, the details are less important than the point that it is a late game super weapon, and I felt because of that, one thing that would help set it apart from other chariots/tramplers, is a nice damage shield. Could give it the Poison Barbs effect, but Ulm isn't really poisony, so then still have to get creative with some nonsense about a toxic byproduct of Blacksteel forging, that they apply to the spikes.

[MaxWilson]

You could pick an AoE weapon.

BTW, Ophanim are size 5 tramplers with a Fire Shield and Awe. <3 <3

-Max