Hello everyone, and I could use some advice.

[Maraxus]

Ah, okay, I think I mixed up the preaching with the blood-sacrifice rules a bit.

I would say, he needs body etheral (and thus personal luck) to expand into indies but he still is an option as awake early-game pretender (btw I usually play with indi strength 7).

The question is, whether he is fixable overpowered (read: slightly to strong) or unfixable. I think, it's clearly the first, you just need to tune it down a little bit, or increase the price somewhat and it should work.

Decreasing the initial dominion to 2 would clearly be an option. Even base dominion 3 would make it "still powerful but probably okay", my guess.

[Saulot]

Luckmann said:
Ach. I know you're not trying to sound condescending. It's like technical support. "Is the computer plugged in?" & "Is the monitor turned on?". I have been playing the game for a week or so. I was merely asking because of the way you said it, like it was a double-preach. As far as I know, the Pretender is more of a mobile temple (spreading the influence not only in the province, but outwards), while preaching only increases Dominion in the province in which it's done.

Second, are you sure that priest levels actually increase the pretender's inherent spread of dominion? Since pretenders weren't originally meant to have priest levels, I find such an effect highly doubtful.

Er, sorry about it sounding condescending. When someone says new, it's hard to tell what that really means. Besides, there are lurkers who read the forums (a few who are very new), also I find it's better to answer as completely as possible, to limit follow-up questions. (Also, a weeks' worth of gaming can vary a lot as well. To some it's 5 hours, to others 50.)

Anyway, the priest level for the pretender wouldn't make his dominion spreading any more powerful, it would just mean that he could preach in addition to his normal spread, and in your case, with preaching would automatically raise dominion by 2 (or lower enemy dom by 2). He also wouldn't have any limit placed on how he high he could preach, other than the normal dominion limit of 10.

Luckmann said:
Thanks. I checked it out a bit and the only real similarity is that one fact that they are both living immortals. The Bakemono Kunshu have higher stats almost across the entire board, and have two seperate magic schools from scratch, which is important to take into consideration since it lowers the cost of raising said schools, wheras the Ecclesiarch only have one raisable school (by default).

This is true, he has nonhuman stats, but so does your guy. As for whether it's preferable to have two schools at lvl 1 or one school at lvl 2, that's entirely subjective, not the least of which is what the schools are in question. Furthermore, since each lvl you purchase is more expensive than the last, the difference between starting at lvl 2 vs. lvl 1 could be higher than the purchase cost of another lvl 1, if the end result you're looking for is a high lvl, such as 9, and the new pathcost isn't ridiculous like 80.

Anyway, the easiest way to balance something is to tweak a unit that already exists. Your unit is a bit too dissimilar to everything else, so that won't work. Other than me and others eyeballing it and coming to various conclusions (my own being that it's a bit overpowered). I'd suggest taking it for a test run. Or letting your friend play it in a MP game against you.

[Luckmann]

Maraxus said:
Ah, okay, I think I mixed up the preaching with the blood-sacrifice rules a bit.

I would say, he needs body etheral (and thus personal luck) to expand into indies but he still is an option as awake early-game pretender (btw I usually play with indi strength 7).

The question is, whether he is fixable overpowered (read: slightly to strong) or unfixable. I think, it's clearly the first, you just need to tune it down a little bit, or increase the price somewhat and it should work.

Decreasing the initial dominion to 2 would clearly be an option. Even base dominion 3 would make it "still powerful but probably okay", my guess.

Ah, some solid advice. Yeah, I was thinking of simply lowering it to 2, since I do now realize that the potential spread of faith on a mobile unit can be quite powerful (I've primarily played with immobile pretenders, with high Dominion (6-8 minimum).

While it's entirely possible to do a potent pretender still, lowering it to 2 will be more or less the same as increasing the point cost. I'd even be willing to consider lowering it to 1, to put it on-par with other base human pretenders.

What would be the base cost of increasing Dominion from 2 to 4 and 1 to 4 respectively? I know it increases by 7 every time, but is that counting from 1 or from whatever base a pretender have?

[Aezeal]

basic fixes: (balance and flavor)

- lower holy level to 4
- remove awe
- CERTAINLY remove fear (seeing the pope eye to eye doesn't bring fear in my heart)
- remove pillage (the pope pillaging ??)
- remove AoE weapon for something powerfull but not AoE

then a lil upgrade
- give MR 18
(else he'll be soul slay food)

[Luckmann]

Aezeal said:
basic fixes: (balance and flavor)

- lower holy level to 4
- remove awe
- CERTAINLY remove fear (seeing the pope eye to eye doesn't bring fear in my heart)
- remove pillage (the pope pillaging ??)
- remove AoE weapon for something powerfull but not AoE

then a lil upgrade
- give MR 18
(else he'll be soul slay food)

- Lowering holy level to 4 have already been covered and is a definite no-no for previously mentioned reasons.
- Removing BOTH fear and awe would leave the Ecclesiarch with only Immortality and a number of schtick flavour abilities. Second, you're confusing Pope John Paul II with.. let's say.. Innocent VIII - the pope that appointed Tom�s de Torquemada, with a personal retinue of "interrogators" to boot. Facing that, you'd either be very, very stupid, struck with awe, or scared to your wit's end, depending on your orientation; I assure you.
- Pope pillaging? It's far more likely than you might think. Again, this isn't a pope, or I'd actually name him Pope. His text explains his position more fully. And of course, it's not he himself that goes into the village and takes everything not nailed to a wall - he's got a retinue, which is the idea behind both the pillaging and the patrols. I was actually going to add Gluttony for this reason. But there's not a command for that.
- I had completely missed that it had an area of effect. Consider it changed (I guess I just glanced at it and figured that AoE:1 simply meant that it wasn't.. you know.. AoE.

[Maraxus]

To add gluttony, use
#supplybonus -X
A negative value creates gluttony.

As for the mobile dominion-thing: Sometimes, you are just stuck before an enemy castle with lots of summons inside that repair the walls, or it's early game and the defenders have good tower weapons are heavy armor and you have not yet researched the counter-tactics.

In this cases you might want to dominion kill your enemy instead of taking his last fortress(es), once you have all provinces. A god in front of that castle is quite good for that allready, a level 6 inquisitor likewise, I'd guess.

[Luckmann]

Oh, that's great. Awesome.
Update time. I lowered base Dominion to 2, gave him Fire Sling instead of Fire Flare (in light of the AoE-issue). It's got a much longer range, but much lower damage, accuracy, and no AoE. I also added Gluttony 14 (to account for the supposed retinue) and upped magic resistance to 16 - this would allow him to buff himself to 18-19 Magic Resistance if one goes for an Astral Bless strategy.

Edit: Also lowered HP to 16.
Edit2: I also added Encumbrance 2.

[llamabeast]

I believe all the pretenders have MR 18 without exception, so you could just give him that.

[Aezeal]

fear is really only for very very fearsome creatures just not for humans he really shouldn't have it. This person is only fearsome through what he commands and his armies etc (your example only clearifies this) but that is not what the fear thingie is about. All armies in this game would generally be considered a thing to fear really but that also is not how fear is in this game.

awe.. could be for humans and considering his "flavor" you could do it (I wouldn't though), if you insist on using it I'd not go higher than Awe +0 (only very magical and beautifull creature shoud have higher awe in dominions.)

Holy 4 is already VERY VERY high and hardly ever seen in the game so I'd really lower it to that.

as llama said MR 18 is standard for pretenders and sort of needed else it'll become magixd to death to fast.

Lowering his base dominion is not what I'd do, a very holy thingie pretender usually has high base dominions (I'd sooner get this higher instead of the holy 6)

for a holy person pillage really shouldn't be there in this game only the most wild or evil pplz have that, most pretenders are a bit neutral so you can RP each way.

healer 20 or 50 is a much more common and more logic choice for a holy man, though not for an iquisitor I must admit

I'd not use gluttony for his retinue but rather the command to summon like 5-10 units on battle start and a same option to get them via a regular summon command (seem fitting that he can convert pplz to become holy avengers/inquisitors or whatever) seems more thematic.

Ps standard human encumbrance is 3 not 2, 2 is only for barbarians and lion tribes, pplz living in the wilds running all day so having better stamina, your pretender doesn't seem to qualify.

The fire sling is a nice but IMHO not really a weapon for a pretender , maybe you should just mod a nice weapon, some sort of fire staff, or just have him throw fireballs. or undead repelling water (some commander has that and I've always thought it was a nice feature)

The immortality thing also doesn't seem to fit your description though (sorry) since you say a new one comes.. but if he's immortal he'd have all the old ones afflictions etc.

To solve that you could make an immobile pretender which can have the command to summon this unit (if you make it unique) it'd fit your description more.

Well good luck with it, pretty sure you didn't want to hear all this but whatever

PS I don't think he's really overpowered though.

[Luckmann]

llamabeast said:
I believe all the pretenders have MR 18 without exception, so you could just give him that.

Yeah, thanks a lot. I just noticed. I have no idea how I could've missed that.

So, this is how it stands right now, unless someone pulls something really drastic out of his behind. If all the others were drafts, then I guess this one is 1.00.
The Ecclesiarch Screencap

Aezeal said:
fear is really only for very very fearsome creatures just not for humans he really shouldn't have it. This person is only fearsome through what he commands and his armies etc (your example only clearifies this) but that is not what the fear thingie is about. All armies in this game would generally be considered a thing to fear really but that also is not how fear is in this game.

I think you are somewhat stuck in the, pardon my language but, "infantile" stage of assumption that fearsomness somehow equals uglyness or spouting horns, a tail and breathing flames. While undoubtly these things are scary in themselves, it's not necessarily what constitutes a fearsome effect. If it was, how do you explain THIS ? (Den lagerarbetande munken broder Truck). Yes, this character is decked out in a number of stars here, but if that's "also is not how fear is in this game", then how does it actually work? Clearly, my friar isn't spouting horns. He's simply become an imposing and generally badass person through his years of strife. He gives the impression that he's not only got the power to rip out your throat and shove it up your rear-end, but he also gives the impression that that's exactly what he's going to do.

Aezeal said:
awe.. could be for humans and considering his "flavor" you could do it (I wouldn't though), if you insist on using it I'd not go higher than Awe +0 (only very magical and beautifull creature shoud have higher awe in dominions.)

I could go along with this. But fact still remains; He is a very magical and demanding figure. He can't be considered a "base" human anymore. For all intents and purposes, he is a vessel of a higher will or "possessed" by a spirit, be it through the same means of which empowered the Giant Idol pretender or the possession of the Oracle or the Fountain of Blood.

Aezeal said:
Holy 4 is already VERY VERY high and hardly ever seen in the game so I'd really lower it to that.

Yes, but it's already been settled. Twice. The very lowest he could possibly go is 5. The prospect of a prophet of 4 + 1 Priest Level is downright heresy to the flavour and fluff of the character basis.

Aezeal said:
as llama said MR 18 is standard for pretenders and sort of needed else it'll become magixd to death to fast.

Yes, yes. Duly noted. Why repeat it if Llama said it? Anyway, it was just me that didn't notice, for some reason, despite having 3 other pretenders in front of me at almost any given time.

Aezeal said:
Lowering his base dominion is not what I'd do, a very holy thingie pretender usually has high base dominions (I'd sooner get this higher instead of the holy 6)

As noted.. what? Four times? Now, that's not an option. For balance reasons, his dominion had to be dropped, unfortunately. It does fit a bit, however, since while imposing, his range is limited. While a Titan's influence may spread far and wide due to a variety of circumstances, a human can only be seen and heard so far.

Aezeal said:
for a holy person pillage really shouldn't be there in this game only the most wild or evil pplz have that, most pretenders are a bit neutral so you can RP each way.

Good and Evil are viewpoints. I'm sure that the people "back home" don't mind my pillaging. You can choose to use it or not, if you want to maintain your neutrality. Just because he CAN pillage doesn't mean that he MUST. Patrol can just aswell be considered a purely good act - caring for your people, nurturing them and keeping them safe from harm. Yet you don't complain on part of the players that want to be "Evil".

Aezeal said:
healer 20 or 50 is a much more common and more logic choice for a holy man, though not for an iquisitor I must admit

Yeah, I considered healing, but I opted not to. I didn't want to make the list of bonuses too long and then have more or less all of them be very small. I'd rather have a smaller list of stronger "flavour" abilities.

Aezeal said:
I'd not use gluttony for his retinue but rather the command to summon like 5-10 units on battle start and a same option to get them via a regular summon command (seem fitting that he can convert pplz to become holy avengers/inquisitors or whatever) seems more thematic.

I did consider that too. I decided not to, since it'd mean that a number of units simply went 'poof' after combat, be it militias or inquisitors. Gluttony was added to put an emphasis on the fact that he has a retinue, explaining why he's got Pillage, Patrol and, in part, Fortune Teller bonus.

Aezeal said:
Ps standard human encumbrance is 3 not 2, 2 is only for barbarians and lion tribes, pplz living in the wilds running all day so having better stamina, your pretender doesn't seem to qualify.

Wow. Such good luck that he's not a standard human, then? As explained. Several times.

Aezeal said:
The fire sling is a nice but IMHO not really a weapon for a pretender , maybe you should just mod a nice weapon, some sort of fire staff, or just have him throw fireballs. or undead repelling water (some commander has that and I've always thought it was a nice feature)

Really? If you could find the name of that weapon (undead-repelling water) I'd be eternally grateful. I've been trying really hard to find a fitting stock weapon for him. I'm not to keen on adding a quarterstaff or something like that since it wouldn't fit his fiery-hand-like attack animation.

Aezeal said:
The immortality thing also doesn't seem to fit your description though (sorry) since you say a new one comes.. but if he's immortal he'd have all the old ones afflictions etc.

The Immortality ability is just an ability in itself. What he's got isn't actual immortality, as explained in the text. The carrying-over of afflictions (should he ever accumulate any) is easily explained; The "guiding" pretender carries the afflictions with him across previous incarnations.

Aezeal said:
To solve that you could make an immobile pretender which can have the command to summon this unit (if you make it unique) it'd fit your description more.

I like the idea, but then I'd end up with either two very powerful, basicly, Pretender-units, or one very impotent immobile pretender. Neither is very appealing.