NLAW

[Zipuli]

DRG said:
...and if you go back and read what Andy wrote on the first line you will find he said "Missiles don't use the 1-2-3 shot ladder of normal guns."

Yes, I did read Andy's message very carefully. OK, so missile has no 1-2-3 ladder. I did a following test:

Sweden VS. Russia
6 NLAW (MBT-LAW) VS 12 MT-LB
-all engagements are from static positions VS static MT-LBs. Results listed as follows:

Engagement number (firing team X/6):
Range to target in meters, terrain target is on (hit % given in lower screen when right clicking the target)
-(team suppression) hit chance, result of the shot

Fisrt engagement (team 1):
Range 150m, target on open field (35%)
-23 %, miss
-(3) 32 % miss
-(1) 53 % kill

Second engagement (team 2):
Range 150m, target on open field (hit % given when right clicking is 35%)
-23 % miss
-39 % hit

Third engagement (team 3):
Range 300m, target on open field (32%)
-35 % miss
-59 % miss
-88 % hit
-96 % kill

Fourth engagement (team 4):
Range 500m, target on open field (28%)
-28% miss, receives fire, 1 casualty
-22% (2) miss
-46% (1) miss

Fifth engagement (team 5):
Range 250m, target on open ground (56%)
-33 % miss
-67 % kill

Sixth engagement (team 5):
Range 450m, target on open ground (29%)
-29 % kill

Seventh engagement (team 5):
Range 300m, target on open ground (32%)
-29 % miss

Eight engagement (team 6):
Range 250m, target on open ground (58%)
-34 % miss
-70 % hit
-94 % kill

Ninth engagement (team 6):
Range 300m, target on open ground (33%)
-33 % kill

-------------------

So, with 6 teams firing total of 20 shots, I scored 9 hits, which is 45 % hit ratio, and scored 6 kills, which is 67 % kill ratio, and total lethality (6/20) is 30 %. And as you can see, these were semi "combat" situations, with enemy firing back, but I gave MT-LBs only because I didn't want my teams to get killed after first shot. And targets were not moving, so hit & should have been best possible.

OK, I am not interested in weapon effectiveness according to kill ratio of the missiles fired, nor the lethality of the individual missiles as of course each hit should not be a total kill.

What should be noted is the quite dramatic drop in first shot hit % when range goes above 300m. Something that does not happen with missiles, at least not that clearly). Also, when the targets were 150m away on field (if it has any cover value?) the hit % on first shot was really low (23%)!

But what I am trying to say here, is that the 1-2-3 ladder is CLEARLY visible. This is something I don't see when using ATGMs. And like both you and Andy say, missiles don't have 1-2-3 ladder, so I am questioning if weapon type 23 "Top Attack HEAT" is treated as a missile or not... What I understood from Andy's posts was that LRF has no effect on missiles.

But the same test with RF rating of 20 (LRF) added, I have following result

1, field (150m, 94%):
-99% kill
2, field (300m, 84%):
-84% kill
3, field (500m, 80%):
-80% kill
4, field (300m, 99%):
-73% kill
5, open (450m, 80%):
-73% miss
-80% kill
6, open (500m, 73%):
-73% miss
7, open (250m, 99%):
-88% kill
8, open (250m, 88%):
-97% kill
9, open (300m, 85%):
-85% miss

For this I used NLAW team with Finnish base stats, but Fin and Swe have both 75 as exp, fin has 75 morale, sweden 70. I believe this doesn't make much of a difference. What did do a huge difference, is that when the team "knows the range", hit % rockets sky high against the same static targets vs. when they "didn't know" the range. When using NLAW, range doesn't matter, just like with ATGMs. If the firer misses, it is not because he guessed the range wrong...

Zip

[Mobhack]

What should be noted is the quite dramatic drop in first shot hit % when range goes above 300m. Something that does not happen with missiles, at least not that clearly). Also, when the targets were 150m away on field (if it has any cover value?) the hit % on first shot was really low (23%)!

1) 300m just happens to be 1/2 or more max weapon range (12 hexes, 600m) - so accuracy drops off there somewhat for any non-missiles.

2) TA-HEAT is not an ATGM weapon - TA-ATGM would be.

3) Fields do provide some cover (esp for infantry) - the crops obscure vision like tall grass.

As I said before - the NLAW really needs to be in a new missile class of its own. (Or, the possibility for VIRSS and CIWS needs to be screwed right down for reaction to very close range missile shots - vehicle dodging is already difficult if the missile launch is from < 20 hexes/1000 yards). When I look at the code again for the next release around Xmas time, I'll have a look into these short-range semi-guided weapons.

cheers
Andy

[DRG]

I had two examples yesterday in tests where one MBT LAW ( same weapon as NLAW ) fired by an infanrty section AFTER MOVING hit and destroyed a tank at 600 yeards range on the first shot and a Inf AT team did the same thing, after moving, on a tank at 550. Both were game "combat conditions". I am not convinced there is a problem with the accuracy of this weapon.

Don

[Zipuli]

Mobhack said:
As I said before - the NLAW really needs to be in a new missile class of its own... ...When I look at the code again for the next release around Xmas time, I'll have a look into these short-range semi-guided weapons.

OK, thanks for the info, I missed the part where you said you already were looking into NLAW having missile class.

DRG said:
I am not convinced there is a problem with the accuracy of this weapon.

OK, if this is the accurate you think the weapon should have, I won't argue anymore about this, as it may just be that I have had bad luck with the weapon so far.

The way the weapon is handled, like Andy confirms in quote above, is hopefully something you also can agree on. And perhaps IF NLAW receives a missile class of its own, the (especially first round) hit % will go up to a level that would reflect the real life characteristics of the weapon a bit better (1-2-3 ladder is no longer used, or the effect is more limited vs. normal guns).

Zip

EDIT:
By the way, while going through the NLAWs in all OOBs, I noticed that Sweden and GB have NLAW ROF 6, and Finland 4. While looking at a few other AT teams, also noticed that GB and Sweden have them all in ROF 6-7, but Finnish APILAS Team was ROF 4. Just and observation that hopefully helps