Manifestation is overpowerd.

[Argitoth]

Endoperez said:
"Out of the assassination spells, Manifestation is the easiest to defend against" I'd wager.

Once again, another one who responds to this thread not having done any tests.

Randvek said:So... where are the results of your testing?

Do your own. At first you might think your strategy for defending against a manifestation is working. Keep testing it and the manifestation will eventually kill the mage bypassing any guards or summons.

Now if you want to go over the top with a powerful mage casting huge amounts of summons like living fire more than once or having twice as many guards etc, then I don't think the manifestation will be able to get to the commander. However, those mages aren't your every-day recruits.

[Argitoth]

Really, I'm getting tired of debating over these kinds of issues. I won't be playing Dominions for much longer, just finishing up a few games that will end soon.

Good riddance.

Edit: If people would just do some tests before making claims, these debates would go a lot better. You know? I spend a few hours testing things sometimes and then some of you want to come outa nowhere and say "WELL, I think you are wrong because I know everything about dominions." Seriously...

[Argitoth]

If someone said, "Well, I just did some tests and here's where you're wrong." that would be music to my ears.

...and yes I'm going to triple post.

[Drake49]

Mostly Argitoth is just trying to prove something to himself, and he is suceeding.

Well, I HAVE done testing on Manifestation, and the results show that Manifestation is much more powerfull than the other two assasination spells.

Manifestation is pretty much a Thug, almost an SC because it has fear. Fortunately, it won't be fighting whole armies, so it might as well be an SC.

Infernal Disease will probably lose to a single Fiend of Darkness. Two Fiends might kill it in the first round, before the Disease Demon can act. Maybe not.

Earth Attack elemental will kill one Fiend... as it should. But five would almost, or would, knock it down to Size 5 in one round. It has to win very quickly against them, because they are doing huge damage. Unfortunately, Fiend's have a defence of 13, so the elemental is almost certainly toast. Against five Fiends of Darkness, which is a really strong bodyguard. Also, the elemental can't fly. Against creatures that can cast Gift from Heaven, you can use an anti-assasination+combat script. <Summon Earth Power><Gifts><Gifts>.. ect. If you position the mage correctly, you can point-blank the elemental from 1 to 3 squares away. And that is how I discovered that Gifts from Heaven CAN target the same square. One turn, elemental Size 6 and ready to SMASH. A casting of Gifts later, and the Earth Elemental is now Size 3, with the loss of Damage and increased action point cost of trampling that this entails. Shortly afterwards, it tends to die.

Can't use Gifts against Ashen Angel easily because it is either all the way across the screen, or it has FLOWN at you and cut you in half with it's sword. Exactly positioned bodyguards might make it work... or you miss and kill all guards and then route and die.

It was not very funny watching five Fiend's of Darkness attack an Ashen Angel for five rounds without even really hurting it. And Fiend's bypass the Angel's etheriality. Not good enough. The Ashen Angel wasn't even actually being HURT by the battle. Life for Life, or Dust to Dust is about the only way to kill it.

[calmon]

Owerpowered?

A spell that need 4 valueable gems to kill 1 (one) random commander with the drawback that it may just kill my own mage or kill a scout again and again?

Hell isn't there anything else you can do with your death gems and your casting 5D(!) Mage than using it for killing 1 unit?

Sure its usefull in some circumstances but not more.

[Endoperez]

Endoperez said:
"Out of the assassination spells, Manifestation is the easiest to defend against" I'd wager.

I think I got this wrong, and sum1lost actually meant "Manifestation is just as easy to defend against as any other assassination spell", meaning that having 20 scouts to 10 mages is enough to essentially protect them. And that's much cheaper than giving mages summoned flying bodyguards.


Argitoth - you might be right in that Manifestation is more powerful than other assassinations, but they are useful against teleporters and such, not against armies with decoy commanders, and that's what makes them situational.

[Hoplosternum]

calmon said:
Owerpowered?

A spell that need 4 valueable gems to kill 1 (one) random commander with the drawback that it may just kill my own mage or kill a scout again and again?

Hell isn't there anything else you can do with your death gems and your casting 5D(!) Mage than using it for killing 1 unit?

Sure its usefull in some circumstances but not more.

This is exactly what I found when I used it a few times. It is a fairly reliable spell in that it usually kills a commander (where as Earth attack did not always succeed). But it was expensive - 4 precious death gems rather than two a penny earth gems - and you needed an otherwise useful high death caster to do it.

And if you enemy has much about him you usually kill a scout or indie commander instead of that vital mage. Making this spell not very cost effective.

[Argitoth]

Calmon: Did you read my first post?
Endoperez: You're not in the game I'm playing where I have 30 mages in one army and each mage is absolutely precious and has items. When you're generating 40 death gems a turn without any global enchantments, 4 death gems is not much. BTW, I am playing C'tis and have the greatest capability to cast Manifestation. However, it's a spell I would officially ban from the game because of how it can kill commanders bypassing any guards or summons. I'd ban it, but I'm about ready to stop that game in a few more turns.

I love Earth Attacks, bring them on! I love to see my enemy wasting earth gems (not really though, it's only 2 earth gems when you're making 25+ a turn). You can defend against earth attack very easily. Each of my 30+ mages are guarded by summons and large recruits and scripted to cast certain spells. All of them have a chance of dieing from a manifestation though.

Read my first post, my solution is simple, set manifestation to attack closest.

[Twan]

Manifestation is one of the rare things allowing to succeed to take a defended province/fort in endgame (imagining manifestation go through the domes).

At a stage of the game where battles are win by the defender if his good casters are alive and with gems, the few good spells able to kill key ennemy mages in magic phase are a necessity.

Actually I'd like to see it nerfed only if the whole endgame magic is redone. With the actual system I'd rather like to see a manifestation equivalent added in each path.

[calmon]

I read your first post

"Manifestation is overpowered for one reason and one reason only: Manifestations have a chance of attacking the commander regardless of how many units the commander is surrounded by."

And i wrote that its not.

Why should i argue with the detail that manifestation may attack the commander regardless of his guards if i find the commander killing spells by themself very situational and NOT overpowered?