Scripting Issue - Specifically Retreat Command

[Saulot]

You have a good point Tuidjy, it's not likely a situation that comes up often, but I imagine it's possible, as Assassins can be equipped specifically to deal with a known specific SC or thug-type.

Anyway, Jazzepi does.

[Jazzepi]

Tuidjy said:
Hmm? You think that SCs are prone to being assassinated, right now? And who
scripts SCs to retreat, anyway?

The AQ in question wasn't really an SC. She was just carrying some gear to keep her alive, a staff of storms, and a bunch of gems.

The one that teleported in by herself without the shimmering fields backup to do damage. She was an SC.

Jazzepi

[NTJedi]

Saulot said:
This would make Caelum unassassinatable (is that even a word? heh, probably not), and so would be way too unbalancing, not just for them, but air nations in general. Not to mention the various other flying SC's and thugs that are in need of a good trip to a wetworks facility.

It wouldn't make Caelum immune to assassinations, only the commanders/mages setup to instantly flee. If you have all your commanders/mages in Caelum setup to instantly flee you're probably not doing very well in MP games or SP games.
I approach game design by logic... and logically a flying mage scripted to instantly flee should escape an earth elemental assassination. If the assassin is another flyer then the game should be designed where one flyer has to run on the ground past the other flyer. Thus both flyers walk once a retreat occurs for game balance. I doubt we'll be seeing a change anyways, but instant death while fleeing doesn't make sense.

[Lingchih]

Ahh. But if you script a commander to retreat, you gotta pay the price sometimes. Personally, I never script anything but scouts to retreat. I think I'm out-thinking myself if I do that with an SC.

[Jazzepi]

Lingchih said:
Ahh. But if you script a commander to retreat, you gotta pay the price sometimes. Personally, I never script anything but scouts to retreat. I think I'm out-thinking myself if I do that with an SC.

Pay the price? The commander suicided for no reason. Commanders ignore their scripts all the time. I don't see why a commander can't ignore a script that automatically results in their own death. Had that AQ not retreated, and just sat still for the next 20 rounds, the disease demon would have died from the shimmering fields spell.

The only reasons scripting exists is because you can't realistically play out these battles tactically in real time. It's a compromise between giving you control over battles and allowing a game to progress at a reasonable pace.

Jazzepi

[chrispedersen]

Sure,
Still causes a balance question for the nations that include assassins as an element of their forces.

Fundamentally, does anyone thing assassins are overpowered (or even generally worth building / hiring?).

The occassional flee death is the price you pay for someone else choosing a sub-optimal strategy. Sucks when its you.. but...

[Jazzepi]

I don't know how much MP you've played, but assassin spells are actually used quite generously mid to late game, especially disease demon and earth attack. They're not a "sub-optimal strategy" and there's no reason that a unit should suicide itself because it has retreat in its scripting.

All I want is retreat, which is obviously always the worst choice in any assassination attempt (literally standing still and doing nothing would be better), to be ignored during such an attempt.

Retreating from battle is a legitimate tactical choice. There's a reason there's a "fire and flee" option for archers. To punish someone for trying to use scripts properly, by having them execute it in a situation where it's completely irrational for them to do so, when the game is already setup with a form of AI that can, and does, ignore in game scripts is just ridiculous.

And to propose that it's just "a price you pay" is even more so.

Jazzepi

[capnq]

Jazzepi said: I don't see why a commander can't ignore a script that automatically results in their own death.

Because the AI isn't smart enough to recognize the difference between "automatically" dying and "probably" or "possibly" dying.

I'm having trouble imagining using "retreat" in scripted orders often enough for this situation to be a significant problem.

[Twan]

I'd like to see retreat order as well as all irrelevant scripted spells (large AE, battlefield enchants etc...) ignored in assassinations attempts.

Actually even communion slave is cast during an assassination, where there is only one mage on the field (and as well an air mage will cast storm or arrow fend against an earth elemental if scripted to do so). It's probably the most ridiculous aspect of the game, and I see no nation relying so much on assassinations that the current system may have a balance justification.

I'm having trouble imagining using "retreat" in scripted orders often enough for this situation to be a significant problem.

I agree retreat is not the worse problem (except... when it happens). I find the lone mage casting "communion master, marble warriors, (then nothing because he is at 100+ fatigue)" far more annoying.

[Agema]

Yeah, I've found assassination problems.

In a SP game someone put up Lord of the Hunt, and he popped round killing all my Vanadrott/Vanjarls simply by routing the bodyguards. In fact quite often my mage cast thunderstrike, hit and routed his own bodyguards, then routed straight after them. The only answer I found was to kit every high level Van hero up as a thug and not use bodyguards, and that's stupidly gem-expensive and not reliable.

Casting communion master/slave in assassinations is not always fatal, but it's one wasted turn where the mage could cast a spells to defend himself or kill the assassin.

Retreating from an assassination has never happened to me yet, but I'm sure it will eventually.

* * *

I think generally assassins coming across the average mage or even some commanders are going to have a success rate under 50% even tooled up with magic equipment - but then assassins are much cheaper than mages, so that's not unreasonable.

I think the autodeath for assassination targets that rout or retreat should be turned off. Retreating to a nearby province is potentially disruptive (especially if they leave their troops behind) so the assassins would still have some effectiveness.