Well...talk about an intimidating game!

[Jazzepi]

I find that the extremes of the pretender design are a good way to start. Finding a good middling pretender requires a lot more finesse with the scales and a better understanding of castable magics and forgable items.

Going with an awake wurm pretender with dom 10 and good scales is a pretty easy way to start.

Jazzepi

[thejeff]

Many the monstrous SC pretenders do very well in the early game, but lack the equipment slots to be true late-game SCs.
Once you've got at least Construction 6 and the gems and paths, I'd bet on the Father of the Sun against a Wyrm any day.

And the undead SCs, like the Ghost King, have their own weaknesses, which are hard to compensate for, once your opponents have the research to target those weaknesses.

[quantum_mechani]

MadApple said:

It's ALL the middle ones I don't understand. Take say the Father of the son or mother of serpents. Both cost around 100 and yet I don't see them really as viable SC's..or am I missing something? Seems to me that if you want to SC you really have to have astral (for the alterations) and you can't go much better than the worms regen as well...so why does anyone choose the pretenders of the other Titans.

This is actually an extremely good question, and the answer for most of them is that no, they don't have niche in the base game. The main exception being blesses, sometimes the most convienent sets of paths for an imprisoned bless pretender is an otherwise useless titan.

In theory, titans have advantage over the more 'monster' pretender becuase they have more item slots later. However, in practice there are a couple pretender that fit both the niche of 'monsters' and have all the needed slots, mainly the Prince of Death and Cyclops.

While it's certainly possible to make an SC out of vitually anything provided they have a good number of HP and item slots, low protection value titans just can't compete economically in this area, and many don't have another area of usefulness. There are plety of ways to make SCs without astral though, the high dominion for awe that's been mentioned is popular.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

If you'd like, I can organize a newbies-only game for you and your friends. I joined two of those myself when Llamabeast created them, and I made several horrid mistakes, and learned quite a bit.

I'm hardly a champion player, but at least I've made all the basic mistakes (such as mistakes regarding my gem usage) that I can. Now I've reached the stage where I'll be defeated by my flawed strategy, not a misunderstanding of the way things work.

[Gandalf Parker]

Id go more with many of them being themed rather than no niche in the game. Possibly they could be said to have no niche for choosing them in a multiplayer game against other human players. In that case the extremes will always tend to be chosen.

But in solo games, or for RPG style of playing, the others can be good. I just personally hate things like the themed gods having themed choices that are paid for in pretender-points even when then nation already has it covered. For example, a pretender for a nature-magic nation tends to be also nature-magic and/or get bonuses in food supplies for armies. Since the nation has a bunch of nature mages, that benefit isnt worth paying the pretender points that put it on the pretender.

I understand them being there and fitting the theme of their nation, but its regrettable.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well, Gandalf, it is regrettable, but occasionally quite useful. Middle Era Agartha can benefit greatly from an e6 pretender if you take magic 1 (or higher) and no misfortune burns down your lab. In that case its all about getting "Earth Blood Deep Well" up ASAP, and hoping you won't have to face one of the counters. Nations with air and astral magic can devastate a golem army, but hopefully you can get it up before the counters are a threat. On the other hand, even 5 attentive statues can devastate an entire wolf tribe province.

[K]

The "middle" gods are for when you need a god who can survive a late-game battle and/or ritual casting. Let me explain:

The middle gods tend to be for very specific builds, like a person that only wants 1-2 colors on a god and have them be very big for specific spell purposes (like casting Wish or Utterdark) or blesses.

So you use them like this:

In a late game battle, some fights really are decided by "destroying the battlefield". For example, someone might cast Foul Vapors or Astral Tempest, and generally in those situations everyone the field (both friend and foe) dies. The smart player does this to kill a few of his mages and troops, and a lot of his enemies. If your god gets killed in one of those, you feel pretty dumb.

Assassination or damaging ritual spells can also easily kill a weak god, so blowing some extra design points to prevent a god death (and a permanent loss to all colors of magic) from something like Fires From the Sky or Earth Attack is very cost effective.

Some of those gods also have weird extra powers. The Frost Father, for example, has a very large Chill effect, making him almost like a battlefield enchantment.

[Chris_Byler]

PoD is weak to undead slaying weapons/spells (a couple sauromancers on eagle eyes, dust to dust x4 can really ruin his day, to say nothing of thugs with herald lances or flambeaux) and IIRC has fewer HP than the titans. Cyclops is weak to Vision's Foe, eye shields and assassins with magical eyes (and sometimes poison, since as an earth mage he is likely to cast invulnerability whether it is scripted for him or not). Since they're fairly commonly used these counters are well known and people will start preparing them as soon as a scout spots your god (maybe even before, if they guess based on pretender titles).

Many of the titans also have unique special abilities (Lord of the Night comes to mind).

I disagree about the "redundant" pretender abilities, though. You can't have too many supplies, especially when you're invading the Ashen Empire. Also, strong pretender magic (ie 6+) in a path your nation has level 2 or 3 mages in can be very useful indeed, IMO; especially if it's a hard-to-boost path. I find a pretender whose paths match the nation's more useful in general; you don't have to alchemize for gems to power your big rituals, or struggle to accumulate enough boosters/empowerment on a mage who started at only level 3.

[Velusion]

I second QM's opinion. Yah, they can be made decent - but there is almost always a better choice.

For most nations you can outright discard about half of all the pretender chassis' if you are playing in a competitive game, regardless of the strategy you plan on using.

[quantum_mechani]

Chris_Byler said:
PoD is weak to undead slaying weapons/spells (a couple sauromancers on eagle eyes, dust to dust x4 can really ruin his day, to say nothing of thugs with herald lances or flambeaux) and IIRC has fewer HP than the titans. Cyclops is weak to Vision's Foe, eye shields and assassins with magical eyes (and sometimes poison, since as an earth mage he is likely to cast invulnerability whether it is scripted for him or not).

Both PoD and Cyclops have plenty of built in abilities to compensate for these minor weaknesses. Just for starters, they each get an elemental resist that your basic titan would lack. I have yet to ever see the single eye on a cyclops specifically made use of by an enemy player (most of those counters if they worked well would work almost as well vs something with 2 eyes), and the fewer HP on PoD is extremely minor compared to the fact that it has 0 enc, built in armor, fear +10, and flying. Actually the defining characteristic of both the PoD and Cylops that make them usable as awake gods as opposed to all the normal titans, is the combo of starting armor and fear. With that and a good number of HPs, all they need is awe from dominion and they are good to go.

Compare that to your typical titan, you have to wait at the very least for some kind of armor (either a buff or item), then it's still quite risky unless you manage to get them fear or a damage shield. And even then, chances are they are a cyclops or PoD would still have the abilities and stats advantage.

Ritual casting gods is a potential niche, but one that in practice tends to be extremely small. Spells powerful and useful to need them tend to take so long to get to you can easily get the boosters items need to reach them by then.