US TOE Questions

[SGTGunn]

I'm not sure there is a newer version of FM 7-11 than the 1962 revision... I can look around my armory for a hard copy, but FM 7-11 is no longer "current" and is not available on AKO (Army Knowledge Online). Are you looking for an M113 based TO&E for a specific time period? During the 60's and 70's the M113 mech companies had 3 M125 81mm mortar carriers in the company mortar platoon plus 1 M113 for the FDC. These seem to have been dropped at some point, because a more recent M113 mech unit (Massachusetts Army National Guard) did not have mortar carriers at the company level. I think the unit had 3 81mm mortars, but they were not mounted in carriers. The only SP mortars were the M106A1 4.2" mortar carriers in the battalion mortar platoon. This was 1998-2000 time frame. Post 2000 the unit converted to a light infantry TO&E and was probably one of the last M113 based mech infantry battalions in the US Army.

Adrian

[Marcello]

The issue is basically this. In the next six months the iraqis are going to get a big shipment of american made (although they apparently will come from third parties rather than US) equipment: 600-800 M60 tanks, artillery etc. Included are 4000 APCs, many of which M113s. This has prompted me to give a closer look at the iraqi organization. As far as I have been told and read US organization practices are followed when possible. So I was looking for US templates to follow to fill the gaps where the info is not available.

[thatguy96]

SGTGunn said:
I'm not sure there is a newer version of FM 7-11 than the 1962 revision... I can look around my armory for a hard copy, but FM 7-11 is no longer "current" and is not available on AKO (Army Knowledge Online).

Did not know that. I stand corrected.

The company mortar platoon org you're describing for the '60s and '70s is the one in FM 7-11 though, 3 mortar carriers and 1 track as command vehicle/FDC

[Suhiir]

Being a former Marine I've never quite understood the Army's approach to mortars.

During WWII and Vietnam the Marines had 60mm's at company level, 81mm's at battalion, and 4.2inch at regiment. Currently we don't have the 4.2inch active but I strongly suspect the new 120's will wind up at regiment.

The Army doesn't use the 60mm's much, given the extra firepower they get from most of their units being mechanized I can understand that. They had the 81's at company level in the 70's as mentioned above but now seem to have dropped them altogether and are left with only the battalion 120's.

I guess my question is - why doesn't the Army like mortars? Are they just assumeing the artillery battalion in each of their brigades is enough indirect fire support?

[SGTGunn]

The army makes extensive use of 60mm mortars, though not in mech units. Army light, airborne, air assault, and ranger companies have an organic 2 tube 60mm mortar section. At the battalion level, Army light, airborne and air assault battalions have a 6 tube 81mm mortar platoon. Ranger battalions have no battalion level mortars. The old M113 APC mech companies (which may still exist in a handful of NG units) had 3 81mm M125 SP mortars instead of the lighter 60mm mortar. All Bradley equipped mech infantry battalions and tank battalions have a 120mm mortar platoon with the M106A2 mortar carrier. Stryker equipped cavalry troops (RSTA) have an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. The Stryker infantry company has an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. In addition there are two 60mm mortars carried in the M1129 for dismounted use.

Adrian

[SGTGunn]

I suspect that what we will see is the standard Iraqi army infantry TO&E simply given the M113s with out much change to their organization. That is what the US Army is currently doing with various non-mech units in Iraq. For example a light infantry platoon will get 4 M113A3s to use in mounted operations. They either have to scrounge up some extra bodies to use as drivers and TCs or lose 2 men out of each squad (probably a rifleman and team leader) to fill those spots. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find "extra" bodies from company HQ platoons and battalion HHC getting pressed into service in that role (especially as drivers) to allow the infantry squads to maximize their dismount capabilities.

If there was no specific mention of mortar carriers (M125 and M106) going to the Iraqi army my guess they aren't getting any. The US has a lot of "extra" M113s as they were (and still are) used by just about everyone in heavy formations from mechanics to medics to engineers as a generic armored utility vehicle. Mortar carriers are more rare, and many of them are still in use by the US Army as the M106A2 (older M106A1s were converted, and I suspect so were at least some M125s). So I think we'll see the Iraqi army using non-mechanized mortars (81mm/82mm and 120mm) carried in trucks or towed in the case of the 120mm. Not sure if they still have any of their MT-LB mortar carriers, but they may use those. As I understand it the first Mech Brigade of the New Iraqi Army is using MT-LBs as APCs.

This of course, is only speculation

Adrian

[Suhiir]

SGTGunn said:
The army makes extensive use of 60mm mortars, though not in mech units. Army light, airborne, air assault, and ranger companies have an organic 2 tube 60mm mortar section. At the battalion level, Army light, airborne and air assault battalions have a 6 tube 81mm mortar platoon. Ranger battalions have no battalion level mortars. The old M113 APC mech companies (which may still exist in a handful of NG units) had 3 81mm M125 SP mortars instead of the lighter 60mm mortar. All Bradley equipped mech infantry battalions and tank battalions have a 120mm mortar platoon with the M106A2 mortar carrier. Stryker equipped cavalry troops (RSTA) have an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. The Stryker infantry company has an organic 2 tube 120mm mortar section using the M1129 mortar carrier. In addition there are two 60mm mortars carried in the M1129 for dismounted use.

Adrian

So it appears the Army "infantry" type units have a couple 60's at company level and the older light mech (113's) a trio of 81's. The heavy mech (Bradley) have zip at company level and a platoon (4 as I recall) of 120's at battalion.
The Stryker, much like the Ranger units, are an odd bird with their own unique TO&E so I'm sorta ignoreing them as "non standard" units.

You mentioned that the old 113 mech companies may still exist in a few NG units . . . are all the active duty Army mech units Bradley's then?

Excuse the ignorance but I know far more about Warsaw Pact TO&E then the US Army's *chuckles*

[Marcello]

I was thinking to do something along these lines.

A leg infantry rifle company composed by:
1) Rifle squad in slot 1
2) Mortar squad (six guys with two 60mm mortars ) in slot 2
3) Three rifle platoons with four rifle squads and a MMG section each

A motorized rifle company.
Same organization as the above but with softskin (trucks,pickups, unarmored HMMWV etc) transport.

Mechanized company (two versions, one mounted on tracked APCs and the other on wheels)
1) Rifle squad in slot 1
2) Two APCs in slots 2 and 3
3) Three rifle platoons composed by three rifle squads, one MMG section and four APCs each.

No organic mortars but a separate mortar platoon composed by three APCs towing/carrying 81/120mm mortar.

Good/Bad, thoughts?

[Suhiir]

I may well be wrong, since as I said US Army TO&E is not something I know very well (and I'm too lazy to look it up). But I believe Army INFANTRY squads are generally larger then their MECH infantry ones.

They seem to tailor their mech squads to the capacity of the APC/IFV. It's 11 men for M113 units and 6 for Bradley ones.

[SGTGunn]

All active duty army heavy mechanized infantry (as opposed to "medium" Stryker equipped) units use the M2 Bradley IFV - and the vast majority (if not all) of NG ones as well. The last active duty mech infantry unit to use M113 was at FT. Carson I believe, and switched over to the Bradley around 1995. A lot of mech NG units were converted to light infantry units rather than switch to the Bradley. Post 1995 the active army only used M113s as a squad carrier for mech combat engineer units. They were also used heavily in mech, armor and artillery units as ambulances, logistical vehicles, maintenance vehicles, etc. For example, when I was stationed with A/2-63 AR in Germany in the late 90's we had 3 M113A3's in our company - 1 for the 1st SGT, 1 for the mechanics, and 1 for the medics. Since the start of the Iraq War it became obvious that the up-armored hmmwvs and unarmored trucks were inadequate as tactical transport vehicles in high threat areas. M113s were scrounged up, and many more brought out of mothballs, refurbished and given appliqu� or slat armor and given to units that normally lacked any kind of armored vehicles. Because a M113 can carry 11 dismounts, it adapts easily for use by light, airborne and air assault units and their 9-man squads. The M113 is really a great vehicle, and with some easily available upgrades such as appliqu� armor, composite ramps, band tracks and remote weapon stations you get a vehicle that is IMHO superior to the Stryker in most ways, and A LOT cheaper to boot.

Adrian