Modding Idea List

[Sombre]

Well I've only marked those in the modlist with a 'yes' for 'balanced for vanilla?' if the modder indicated that they were going for that balance. So it would make sense that those are the only ones worth discussing vanilla balance for.

I haven't seen any super nations designed for the AI apart from 'AI Mictlan' which I made and no-one downloaded. So not sure which mods you're referring to.

[VedalkenBear]

Well, I look at the vanilla game (which the mods I'm referring to are supposed to fit in with) and I don't see that kind of issue. To take each of your examples:

1) 'Bad' starting castle type.

I believe Niefelheim has a 30 Admin Starting Castle, yes? I don't see them getting cheap mages by way of compensation for it.

2) Expensive Mages but site that makes money

A more intriguing example, yet one that doesn't seem very balanced, since there's no way to _make_ the player use the money from the site on the mages to 'offset'. A better way to do this would be to make two mages, one capital-only and the other not. The non-capital-only mage would just cost more.

And I did not say 'just referring' to formula. It is a guideline. However, you need to know the rules before you can learn when (and how) to break them. The classic example in the vanilla game is the Daughter of Avalon. If you take into account overall utility, she may be the most cost-efficient researcher in the game. (Philosopher is clearly better but is useless for anything besides research, has old age problems, and is capital-only for a nation that has many capital-only commanders.) She is definitely cheaper than 'the formula' called for. However, she's an arguable.

Most of the mods I've seen, the cases aren't even close to 'the formula'. I guess I'll hunt down each mod's thread and point out things.

Gandalf: I believe I have restricted myself in this thread to the mods noted as 'meant for vanilla' which, as Sombre notes, is by modder choice.

[Sombre]

I think your making a fairly big assumption, that mods which are marked 'balanced for vanilla' are actually made to 'fit in' with the vanilla nations. One of the big draws of modding is that you can do something different, not just make a version of Mictlan with different graphics, or renamed Ulm units. Taking Avernum as an example, it doesn't really 'fit' with vanilla nations; it's very different in a number of ways. I never actually made any attempt to make it similar to the vanilla sides.

What I did /try/ to do was make it so you could play it alongside the vanillas and not be hugely over or underpowered. Any constructive feedback helping me do that is appreciated.

I gave you two random examples of how mods can be balanced differently. These methods may not appear in the vanilla game, but when you're dealing with mods you have to accept they aren't always going to follow 'patterns' set out by vanilla. The thing to aim for is to stop them being hugely over or underpowered (worse than the worst dom3 nation or better than the best).

[VedalkenBear]

Sombre, that is the exact issue I am discussing. I am concerned that a nation is overpowered or underpowered relative to the vanilla nations. Not that they are necessarily a 'slightly modded vanilla nation'. Basically, when I see 'balanced for vanilla', I think to myself, "If someone played this in a MP game with others, would anyone call foul?"

Avernum is quite a nice mod, from what I saw. I'm not sure if I caught all the parameters (the Vashnai units did not seem useful enough to justify their presence), but I was able to put together a credible game or three with them. (Specifically, I used their lizard infantry IIRC to expand.) Avernum may need a bit of tweaking, but its _premise_ is sound.

What I'm referring to is something more like this. You can generally get about 6 research out of a 150g non-sacred mage (in a magic-neutral domain). Well, if someone comes out with a mod that has a 120g sacred mage that generates more research than that, the first thing I do is try to find what deficiency that is making up for. If I can't find one, then I question the wisdom of that decision.

Am I making myself a bit clearer? Sorry for any confusion.

[Sombre]

Just making sure we're on the same page. You could have a nation that has a 120g sacred mage who can research up a storm, but they might also start with little gem production, have poor sacreds, rampant old age problems and be crippled by a low admin startfort.

Sometimes you have to consider the nation as a whole. That's harder than following a forumla. On the other hand, following a rough forumla does make balancing a lot easier.

I think we agree on what needs to be done for balance, so I'd be happy for you to comment on my mods. Other people might not see eye to eye with you, buyt they're putting their work in a public forum, so I think it's fair to comment on theirs too. Look foward to seeing what you have to say :]

[VedalkenBear]

I'll look into it. I think I'll refrain from talking about others' mods, since I'm already getting comments... ah well.

[Sombre]

Well, not everyone knows what the cheapest 6rp mage in dom3 is, or how much an oldage sacred caster with 3 paths of fire and 2 of water should generally cost. Nothing wrong with information sharing, but you can't act like people are clueless for not knowing stuff like that.

I have only been playing dom3 for a comparatively short amount of time. I enjoy modding and I'd like to make balanced nations, but my expertise is limited by lack of experience. I know virtually nothing about the lategame of clams and gem hoarding, spamming summons etc for instance.

It's theoretically possible to give people balance suggestions without offending them too ;]

[VedalkenBear]

Theoretically, I guess. *sigh* It's just what does or does not offend me is not what offends most people, and so I generally step on people's toes without realizing it.

I don't mind if people don't know. However, I would like to point out here that there was a formula posted on IW's site for Dom2 on how to calculate a mage cost. And, while far from perfect, it did get you 'in the ballpark'.

And you can always do research. Let's see, you want a sacred mage that has 6rp, right? Okay, well, let's see, Mictlan gets that, with Holy-2 besides, but they're about 220g and have old age issues. And they're capital-only, for the most part. But hey, there are also the Theurgs, who are 150g, 6 rp, and Sacred. They also have Old Age problems. So probably somewhere between those two would be okay.

This shows you my thought processes when making a mage. Use already existing mages as a base, then tweak from there.

Edit: There's also the idea that 3 in one path and 1 in another path is worth 'more' than 2 in each of two paths. See, I see these kinds of things when I play through the game, and I ask these kinds of questions (like, "Why is this mage so much more expensive than this one?"). Don't most people?

Do you see what I mean?

[Sombre]

Well it seems like you have a better idea of balance than most and I think that's useful

There are always things that one person finds easy to spot and other people find hard. A few modders here are very good at graphics, others couldn't get that good if they practised every day. Some people know a lot about history and languages, some are more interested in working out whether order misfortune or turmoil luck gives a better income on average after 50 turns.

Best to combine our strengths, I reckon, and without toe stepping, if possible.

[VedalkenBear]

Heh. Yes, I freely admit I have no talent at art. (I tried, too!) I see myself as an analytical problem-solver, and so I tend to approach everything like that.