Air Cobras

[Dimitry]

thatguy96 said:
Unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1Q. However, should have same EW as AH-1S (EW 6)

Unit 121 AH-1 Cobra/TOW - Appears to be right for AH-1F. However, TOW-2A not produced until 1987. Should either have TOW or ITOW at this date.

I must say it's very informative.
But why do you think that unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW should have EW 6 ?
If you look at me previous post, you will find a link, proving that AH-1S Cobra had infrared jammer equipment, equal to the in-game EW of 3


Here's the information about AH-1F
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/ah-1f.htm

....."The Cobra can also disperse chaff and infrared jamming flares using the M130 general purpose dispenser "....
The same infrared jammer equipment.

[loktarr]

Dimitry said:
2 loktarr

Actually - it's MI-2, not MI-8. And yes, MI-8 is slower than MI-2.
And if I am not mistaken, the SIZE in game manual is treated as DIMENSIONS.
Nothing is said about maneuverability or speed or anything else.

First I must admit I was wrong, and took Mi-8 for Mi-2. My apologies for that.
Whatever is in the game manual, the fact is that size is you used to determine if the unit is hit and if it's spotted. It seems to me very clear that if you at overall capacities of both Mi-2 and AH1, the second is much harder to hit: the cobra has same max dimensions, but what about his shape?
But you are right: unit can avoid missiles with maneuvers, so maybe the OOB maker didn't take agility as a factor to determine size.

[KraMax]

I welcome all.

The MI-2 and Cobra helicopters are same size.
Look at the dimensions:

Cobra

Main rotor diameter 14.63 m
Fuselage length 13.87 m
Wing span 03.28 m
Width overall 03.28 m
Overall height 04.44 m

MI-2
Main rotor diameter 14.6 m
Fuselage length 11.9 m
Wing span 03.05 m
Width overall 02.65 m
Overall height 3.7 m

images:

[Dimitry]

2 KraMax

Wow! Great pictures!
Thanks for the dimensions info.

2 loktarr

loktarr said:

First I must admit I was wrong, and took Mi-8 for Mi-2. My apologies for that.
Whatever is in the game manual, the fact is that size is you used to determine if the unit is hit and if it's spotted. It seems to me very clear that if you at overall capacities of both Mi-2 and AH1, the second is much harder to hit: the cobra has same max dimensions, but what about his shape?
But you are right: unit can avoid missiles with maneuvers, so maybe the OOB maker didn't take agility as a factor to determine size.

No, never mimd! I guess it was some kind of a misprint
As for the shape - just take a look at the pictures above and tell me which chopper is harder to hit?

[loktarr]

Dimitry said:
As for the shape - just take a look at the pictures above and tell me which chopper is harder to hit?

I will buy each one and try...

[thatguy96]

Dimitry said:

I must say it's very informative.
But why do you think that unit 120 AH-1 Cobra/TOW should have EW 6 ?
If you look at me previous post, you will find a link, proving that AH-1S Cobra had infrared jammer equipment, equal to the in-game EW of 3


Here's the information about AH-1F
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/ah-1f.htm

....."The Cobra can also disperse chaff and infrared jamming flares using the M130 general purpose dispenser "....
The same infrared jammer equipment.

I wasn't getting into the debate over the EW as right or wrong. In terms of what exists, the AH-1Q and AH-1S had the same defensive systems, so in game they should be equal. As it stands now the AH-1S has EW of 6, what is effectively the AH-1Q had EW 7. the AH-1Q should be equal to the AH-1S in the EW category.

[Dimitry]

AH-1H? Firstly, I'm not sure what model you're talking about because there was no AH-1H. A quick look at the sources I have available has garnered a picture of an AH-1 with the AN/ALQ-144 in 1984. The delivery date of the first units, which were purposely purchased for the AH-1 series, is stated to be 1981.

Yes, the talk was about AH-1F. I apologize for the misprint.
As for the AN/ALQ-144 - as far as I know this is the very infrared jammer. So this is still in-game EW of 3. Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

[Mobhack]

Dimitry said:
Yes, the talk was about AH-1F. I apologize for the misprint.
As for the AN/ALQ-144 - as far as I know this is the very infrared jammer. So this is still in-game EW of 3. Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

An EW value of 3 is an EW value of 3. That is one that is one more than 2, and one less than 4. It is nothing to do with a specific type of electronic warfare system. It cannot be - as the game has no concept of infrared, radar, laser optical or whatever in terms of AAA warfare.

The only specific usage of specific EW values are when they are used as magic numbers for non-ew purposes for non AAA units. There, 1-2 is VIRSS and 3-4 is anti-ATGM CIWS.

So "EW" is just a magic number, more being better. And the USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones.


Cheers
Andy

[thatguy96]

Dimitry said:
Also I would be grateful for the link to your sources.

Imformation from:

Gervasi, Tom. Arsenal of Democracy III: America�s War Machine. New York, NY: Grove Press, 1984

Mutza, Wayne. Walk Around: AH-1 Cobra. Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications, 2002

[Dimitry]

2 Andy

An EW value of 3 is an EW value of 3. That is one that is one more than 2, and one less than 4. It is nothing to do with a specific type of electronic warfare system. It cannot be - as the game has no concept of infrared, radar, laser optical or whatever in terms of AAA warfare.

Well, I can be mistaken but the principles of IR jammers (chaffs, flares, some decoys etc.) for land and air units are mostly the same.
So here's the Mobhack's Help quotation:
".....A value of 1 in this case is 1 shot of Arena active anti ATGM countermeasures, 2 is 2. 3 is 1 shot of Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke (VIRSS) which ejects anti TI smoke, possibly linked to an IR Jammer as well...."
I repeat, I can be mistaken, but it seems to be right way for aircraft/helicopter IR jammer's estimation in EW points.
And BTW - Could you clarify for me the criteria of in-game EW estimation? What is it based on?

And the USA/NATO tends to have better EW numbers than the Soviet ones.

Is it assumptions, or you have documentary proof?



2 thatguy96

Thanks for info, but Internet links would be better.
As for me, I have books on the subject too - but as you can see I use only internet sources. So anyone can check them.