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  #11  
Old June 9th, 2001, 08:29 AM

Saxon Saxon is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Deathstalker,

What do you think about posting her website address here? It sounds like she has great work that is in a style a lot of us would like to see. If she is getting any cash from visits to her website, should would probably appreciate the extra hits and even if not, she would probably like more publicity and appreciation for her work. Doing a little advertising for her might help sooth any upset about improper use of the work.
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  #12  
Old June 9th, 2001, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

quote:
Originally posted by Deathstalker:
....it is the central core of my race.(besides the fact that the picture ROCKS!, and brings a much needed female element to SE4).


What about an Amazon race? Too bad my graphic skill and equipment are zero.

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  #13  
Old June 9th, 2001, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

I can see this is going to be a hot topic for a while.

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  #14  
Old June 9th, 2001, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

This thread made me curious about this artist so I downloaded the Y'Gathian Free States shipset to see the race portrait. Very nice indeed. I'd like to know who the artist is so I can check out more of her work.
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  #15  
Old June 9th, 2001, 06:41 PM

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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

She has her main Gallery at Elfwood, which is a site that hosts art for free for amateur artists. The main site is www.elfwood.com and has thousands of wonderfully talented artists and writers hosted there.

Her section in particular is http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/b/e/bergkvist/

Enjoy!

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  #16  
Old June 9th, 2001, 07:40 PM

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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Well. . . hmm. I feel like I should talk about this as an artist, because, quite frankly, this topic is rather near and dear to me.

Firstly, just so it's clear- this is not intended as a flame of any sort. Deathstalker did the right thing, once he discovered that someone was unhappy with the use of their work.

At the same time, this post contains some helpful hints on using an artist's work, and some pretty harsh ranting about the current state of things, so be aware that I have a strong opinion about this and it doesn't match most of the posters'.

I'm a semi-professional artist who's worked on a number of freeware games over the Last 4 years- Mythos and The Xenology Crisis being the best examples. I've never gotten paid a dime for any of my game work, but I've enjoyed it, and I've been sharpening my skills in the process, so it's been a fair trade.

I'm now at a point in my skills where I can make professional-quality works in 3D, and well. . . I don't put stuff on the Net unless I expect it to get stolen. That's right. . . not "borrowed", "used as fan art" or other phrases. . . it's theft. If I create it, and you like it- buy it! Or view it on a website I designed to get hits, so that I get paid. . . anything else is theft, imho.

But the Internet is no respecter of my rights. If I mainly worked in physical mediums, such as painting or sculpture. . . well, people can forge my works, sure. . . but I'm not famous, and nobody will ever bother. But on the Internet, it's easy to steal the work, and very difficult to track down thieves. After all, they're usually kids who threw up a Tripod site, and they're long gone before I find out that my work's being used elsewhere, so I'm screwed.

Art is the single most commonly-stolen item on the Internet. As a result, I and other artists like me have had to go and dig up crusty legal material specifying the license under which we're distributing our work, because otherwise we're barely covered under copyright law- since we didn't give due notice, the law assumes we don't care about our rights to have our works disseminated in the manner in which we choose. So people have to hit "I agree" before they can access our sites, or. . . we just have to assume that it's going bye-bye, and hope that this will bring more people to our sites. That's a totally BS way of doing things.

As a result of all of the above, many artists have taken their sites down, because the "free publicity" is worthless, if no-one ever buys your current works or commissions new ones. It's a waste of bandwidth, time and energy, not to mention the cost, if it's a privately-owned site.

Big companies can afford the effort to track down thieves, and gently remind them that they aren't allowed to steal from their expensive talent pool. I hate to put it this way, but a "cease and desist" order from a lawyer is a very gentle way of shutting you down. They can do a *lot* worse, and will if they have to, although usually your ISP will shut you down asap if they even ask.

But for those of us who aren't working for corporations. . . well, we're stuck, aren't we? We don't want to put our art on the Web, because it will get stolen. On the other hand, if we *don't* put it up, nobody knows we're artists, and we'll have to troll around for clients or teams to work with. Having been down this road with game teams multiple times, I've had different results depending on the people involved. I turned down a recent project offer, for example, because the 17-year-old "project coodinator" didn't understand that while the team can commision my work, and I will work for free on small stuff, any major project requires very strict controls on who gets to use my work, and how. He simply couldn't get it through his skull that he would have to have someone over the age of 18 sign an actual physical document and send it back to my home gee, how. . . ancient! How quaint! Someone won't work without knowing their content won't get used for other projects that are commercial in nature. . . <lol>

Anyhow, I'm done ranting now. . . here are my hints for dealing with all of the semi-pro folks out there:

1. Always find out who created what you're going to use. Ignorance is not an excuse, under the law. And you should be crediting the artist or owners of that art always in derivative work, if you're going to make the "free publicity" argument work. Always include the trademark or trade name of whatever you're using, as well, and make it clear that the original conception was not your idea.

2. Always ask before you use someone's work, even if the topic is derivative. If you're making a "fan" work, you should ask permission of the legal owners of the material before building anything. "Fan" stuff falls into a very big gray area. . . but basically unless you're distributing it using your own bandwidth, and have no banner ads or other revenue-generating material, you are violating the law's rather vague protection for derivative works. In other words, most folks do not qualify to produce fan works. Making, for example, a Marvel game, and then distributing it via iDrive would be illegal.

3. If it's a semi-pro artist, work out a deal. People like me will often work with you for free, if we trust you. We'll improve the original art, for example, or change it around to suit your needs. In order to build that trust, express your willingness to enter into formal legal agreements(i.e., physical signed documents) that protect the artist from having their work used improperly. Make sure that the artist understands how you intend to use the work- if you're going to take an illustration of a face, for example, and have it associated with evil actions, the artist may object to its use. Be prepared to work with the artist, and don't simply regard them as a tool you need to complete your game idea.

4. Lastly, If in doubt, don't use it. If you have any doubts as to who produced a piece of art, and in what context, don't use it unless you can be sure that it was released under some sort of agreement. "Free" does NOT mean that the artist has said, "gee, do whatever you want with this". The artist, when asked, is probably going to say, "You can use my art on your website, but a game is probably not an acceptable use." Or they may say, "Cool! A game! Just make sure I'm given credit, ok?" If you don't *know*, and you do it anyway, don't be surprised if you get bit, like Deathstalker was :P


[This message has been edited by Argh (edited 09 June 2001).]
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  #17  
Old June 10th, 2001, 04:35 AM

Lerchey Lerchey is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

All,

Argh has a lot of good and valid points, but there is one thing that no one has pointed out.

THE FRIEND OF THE ARTIST HAS NO LEGAL STAKE IN THE ARTWORK; DOES NOT OWN IT; AND HAS NOT REPRESENTED THEMSELVES AS A LEGAL AGENT OF THE ARTIST.

Only the artist or someone LEGALLY acting on the artists behalf can sue for copyright infringement. Think about it... I have NO legal ties to Kodak Corporation. Do you think I have ANY legal means to force you NOT to use their logo on your web page? Not a chance. I can tell them that you are doing so, but *I* have no stake in this, and cannot take action myself.

Deathstalker is being completely reasonable in this. Deathstalker, if you are concerned about this, IGNORE the artists "friend" and contact the artist directly. Ask her for permission to use the image, or simply remove it from your site if she says no.

BTW, most corporations, even big ones, will ask you to "cease and desist" before they will sick actual lawyers on your, or try to gain monetary "damages" for infringement.

Don't be worried about it. Just do the right thing and contact the artist.

Col. John
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  #18  
Old June 10th, 2001, 05:07 AM
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

I checked the artist's website. If I recall correctly, she said you are free to use certain images on your website without her explicit permission. But... she doesn't want you to use any of her images for your own roleplaying characters. So... if you use the picture to represent an entire race, I would say that the statement on her website grants you permission to use the picture.
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  #19  
Old June 10th, 2001, 10:21 AM

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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

Someone mentioned that ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law.

I thought I should also mention that incompetence is also not an excuse in the eyes of the law, thus, doing anything without reading copyright notices will put you in danger of being sued. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular (as DS mentioned that there were no notices on his page), just thought that I would mention it.
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  #20  
Old June 10th, 2001, 03:38 PM

Resident Alien Resident Alien is offline
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Default Re: COPYRIGHT ISSUES, RICHARD/ALL READ PLEASE!!

quote:
Originally posted by raynor:
I checked the artist's website. If I recall correctly, she said you are free to use certain images on your website without her explicit permission. But... she doesn't want you to use any of her images for your own roleplaying characters. So... if you use the picture to represent an entire race, I would say that the statement on her website grants you permission to use the picture.


Two of the pictures are specificaly denied permission to be used for anything and the rest excluded for Role Playing. I am sure we could debate for a long time wether or not a race picture in SE4 is role playing or not. I think it is, you are role playing the emperor/supreme leader/etc... of this race.

Web site says: -
"As usual, I'll let you use my pictures (not the tutorials, though, and not Indeoque's image nor the one of Yeeyan and Clari) on your webpage as long as the page isn't commercial. And as usual, I don't want you to use the images for your roleplaying games characters. "

and
"The material (pictures, stories, etc) found at this site have been provided by the contributing artists who kindly gave me permission to show them.

Copyright and all rights therein are maintained by the artists, notwithstanding that they have offered their works here electronically. It is understood that persons copying this information will adhere to the terms and constraints invoked by each author's copyright. These works may not be reposted without the explicit permission of the copyright holder.

The fact that something has been published at Elfwood and posted on the Internet is in itself a clear message that the artist/writer wants it to be seen, and that he or she is not interested in collecting a toll each time someone takes a look at/reads it.

However, this does not mean that ordinary copyright concepts have ceased to apply - there is still someone who has the copyright to the work. Note, that Elfwood itself is never the copyright holder; it only benefits from a non-withdrawable but also non-transferable "permission to publish". Instead, it is either the original author(s) or a conventional publisher who is the copyright holder. Please respect their rights, and abide by the following natural rules.

No rights or permissions are granted for display of these works on other web sites, webchats or in other forms. Please contact Linda Bergkvist ([email protected]) for details on using his or her works.

Elfwood is not a Clipart area!

Please don't mail the any of the Elfwood Administrators regarding permissions to use copyrighted pictures at Elfwood, they cannot give you these permissions - only the artist or writer (copyright holder) can.

Finally, please, read the legal information for more copyright details.




[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 10 June 2001).]
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