Riflemen have too much ammo

[Mobhack]

If a move represents abot 1.5 minutes, then assuming an hour of fighting that would be 40 moves solid continuous firing.

Now, assuming a full 6 shot opportunities per move were taken, then that would be 6*40=240 Fire opportunities.

Infantry typically have 60 to 90 shot opportunities, so will be "dry" after about a half game hour of solid all-out firing, which is not unrealistic.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html
- The Australians made contact at 4.08pm and were calling for ammo resupply at 5.0pm.

( http://members.tripod.com/sitrep1/cav05b.htm gives another account of Long Tan, from the cavalry's point of view.)

As many have pointed out - should you think the loads are unrealistic, you have Mobhack or the scenario editor at your disposal.

Cheers
Andy

[Mustang]

The manual says a turn is 3 minutes and you say it is 1.5. Which one is it?

I don't like creating a new OOB because it creates PBEM problems and messes with scenarios that other people designed. Too much of a hassle. I would consider it in this case, but really the reason I posted this thread has more to do with wondering "why" it is the way it is rather than suggesting that the game be changed.

It seems to me that, if each fire opportunity represents a three-round burst, the average infantryman would be carrying 720 rounds. I can't believe someone could carry that much, and I know that the Soviet army for one does not carry that much. But it seems like they somehow manage.

Cameronious, are you sure about the Soviet ammo conservation thing? I looked on Google and found nothing. According to their doctrine, they're told to run toward the enemy and fire from the hip. They don't have much use for their burst selectors as they recieve very little training- they often fire only 15 shots per year.

[pdoktar]

Player 1 turn : 1,5min

Player 2 turn : 1,5min

Whole game turn : 3min

[Mobhack]

One game move (player 1 turn plus player 2 turn) represents roughly 2 minutes of 'real time'

(note the word "roughly").

so a typical rifle section with 90 FOPS is still 60/2*6 = 180/90 = a half an hour's solid firing.


Andy

[Cameronius]

Mustang, No I am not sure. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would train a soldier to fire from the hip when in the same amount of time you can train single aimed shots. You don't actually have to be a good shot. Anyway I think you are hung up on the three round burst. Think of it as sometimes a single shot, sometimes a double-tap and rarely a three round burst. FYI Modern Canadian rifleman Full battle load is 5x30rd mags + 1 bandoleer of 100rds= 250rds. LMGs carry 2or3 200rd belts a piece, more if it's available. If mechanized, there will be at least another full battle load per man kept in the vehicle. I think the game is pretty close to real ammo loadouts.

[hoplitis]

Mobhack referred to continuous firing which I assume includes OP firing during enemy turn.

So you have:
own turn: 6 FOPS
enemy turn: 6 FOPS (as OP fire)
game turn: 12 FOPS total

If available FOPS are 90 then you have 90/12 = 7.5 game turns firing constantly at maximum rate.

If a game turn is 2 min that is 15 min battle time.

If a game turn is 3 min then it is ~23 min battle time.

If I haven't done anything completely stupid, let's agree on the numbers and go on with the discussion.

[Cameronius]

hoplitis, your numbers look pretty good to me. 15-23 minutes of a rapid rate firefight seems a realistic amount of time to go through all your ammo. If it ain't broke...why are we still talking about it?

[Mustang]

Cameronious, that's what the run-of-the-mill Motor Rifle Troops did in Afghanistan. Soviet soldiers travel light and only carry four magazines, one in the gun and three with them storage. Like I said before they run toward the enemy, outdistancing whatever extra ammo was in their APCs. Running out of ammo is a real possibility for them because they don't fire in three-round bursts or carry tons of extra magazines like Western soldiers do. If you still don't believe me I'm sure I can find something on the internet. This is from Stephen Zaloga's book Red Thrust.

[MarkSheppard]

I did some numbers on the German Kar98K rifle; and the german "official" loadout of 90 rounds and the 1.5 minutes per player turn:

1.5 minutes = 90 seconds / 6 Actions a turn = 15 seconds per action.

Official Ammo Load 90 rounds
+50% Ammo Load (Simulates people carrying extra ammo) 135 rounds
Rate of Fire (effective) for the Weapon 10 RPM (Kar 98K is 15 RPM, but I doubt most people could fire that fast)
Rate of Fire in Rounds Per Second for the Weapon 0.17 RPS
Ammunition Expended per 15 second Action 2.5 rounds
Shots for Weapon (uses 50% bonus) 54 shots

[MarkSheppard]

Also, we could actually use the shots per weapon to help simulate trained vs non trained troops.

If you give someone with no training with weapons a StG-44 or AK-47 (e.g. a Volkssturm conscript) he'll spray and pray (see african militas), and he'll waste ammunition a lot faster for no appreciable military effect, while a trained person will fire short controlled bursts, having the same effect, but not using as much ammunition.