Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?

[c_of_red]

Armored infantry with those oh so expensive and easy to kill IFV's are best used as a reserve. Use them in the main line and they will get chewed up fast, giving your opponent lots of points. If the terrain is open, they are ok for your second line and the flank. I am referring to the age old formula of 37% in the front line, 33% in the second line, 10% on each flank and in the reserve. This is the basic distribution of forces that have been used since the Romans, who borrowed it from the greeks (I think, no direct evidence, but the Romans borrowed so much else). The units change, and the weapons get more lethal, but that is all. Most players buy mech units for the main line because they are impatient. Buy regular infantry, you have the time to march them into position more often then not.
Stalin said "Quanity has a quality all it's own"
A modern MBT costs about 400 points on the average. A rifle squad, with an anti-tank weapon that can kill the MBT costs about 20 points. Lets say 25. So you can buy 1 MBT or 16/20 rifle squads. The MBT is faster, but it can still only be in one place at a time. My 16 rifle squds will crawl forward 1 hex at a time and Kill the MBT with only a few lost. I can space them wide and cover 33 hexes, or 1 and 1/2 Km's. Or I can space them close and cover 17 hexes. Either way, I'm getting shots at 1 hex with high to hit percentages. So I now have 400 points and you have 75. Works for me.

[Mustang]

Interesting idea about using infantry offensively, C of Red. The only problem is that infantry are soo easy to pin down using artillery or machine guns. And if the infantry get too close, then the tank can just run away while the artillery and MGs continue to attrit them.

The airmobile assault that you mentioned is pretty expensive- 500-800 points for a single assault helo and maybe 100-300 for the transports adds up to a 2,000 pt. + assault force, not even counting the infantry you're carrying. In most battles, it wouldn't be worth it. And I think I know the counter you're talking about- buy a whole bunch of MANPADs or something that helicopters have a hard time killing.

About the Iraqi farmer shooting down the Apache, that was just a propoganda move. In reality the plane was shot down by something else. Baghdad Bob just claimed that the farmer shot down the helicopter with his gun.

[Wonder]

Usually in battles I use airmobile or attack helicopters (ideally a Hind) to attack enemy artillery positions and the HQ unit. Depending on the map I might substitute the helicopter with an APC or a transport plane.

[Mobhack]

Myself, I find a few trasport helos useful. If and only if the map allows some useful terrain masked insertion routes. (Night can be terrain masking, depending on enemy access to radar).

I do not buy the airmobile coys, as a rule. A separate helo unit of 2-3 does fine. Pax come from the leg grunt comapany I generally leave in the rear, covering my gun line etc. from enemy desants (or deep armour thrusts that get round the main body).

1) I dont use them in the early game much - maybe to fly about deep in my half, if the enemy has no LR AAA assets, and visibility is high. They can scout out moving vehicles etc looking "slantwise" from my lines.

2) In the early game, if the terrain allows it, they can be very useful to sneak an AOP or scout detachment int the rear/flank. Dismount out of LOS, fly the chopper back, and use the AOP or scouts to makee-looksee in his flank or rear. Use them to call down spotted arty fire in his rear zones, and DONT reveal them by trying anythingg ramboesque, unless they stumble over something worth alerting the opponent over. (his HQ at 100 yds, or 6 uragans parked beside 6 ammo trucks within 250 yds say). Better to call fires on these though, than use rifles and reveal your presence (esp vs a human player).

Against a human player 1 above - can cause him to get a bit defensive about his rear zone, and to hold back a reaction force. (In WW2 a similar trick to make the opponent wary, is to have a few tigers, and deliberately expose them to view early on, to induce "tiger awareness" in an Allied player. Now hide your targets and your human opponent KNOWS you have the beasts, but WHERE are they going to appear - puts him in a nicely defensive frame of mind, one hopes!)

3) In the end game - is where the platoon of helos are now useful, to move the defensive leg rifle coy over into the offensive or mop-up mode, as a taxi service.

4) In campaigns, they are useful as air ambulances to get high experience beat up core crews or squads to the rear.

5) Even if not going forwards, the helo platoon is still useful to reposition ATGM and/or inf-SAM teams, or ammo containers, or to cycle these back to ammo dumps to recharge. Also, mid game - use to reposition your security leg infantry co into covered hide positions to block against possible ememy thrust lines from ambush, or to provide flank security by observation perhaps. (mobile road blocks etc). Also - can be useful to put fresh infantry into an ongoing firefight, here we use the defensive rifle coy as reserves. Land in a masked area near the fight and walk to reinforce via a secure route (LZ too close to the fight could get arty on the chosen position, or be unlucky enough say to find some enemy flankers!). Sometimes - land the leg grunts well to the rear and clear, and use the unloaded APC of the troops currently in the firefight as an airport taxi service for the final leg. Plan it in advance and pull the APC back to greet the helos as they land, of course. Also useful to move AOP teams to better overwatch positions as the battle progresses.

6) Full-on air desant tactics are really only viable into "cold" LZs, or where the enemy AAA is not too sophisticated (a few AAMG and possibly a few inf-SAM of obsolete type). But the LZ WILL need a preaparation with attack/scout helos (even just to verify it is clean), and working the LZ over a few rounds with HE fire before the drop to sanitise it.

7) DONT expose the helos to any significant AAA threat, especially when loaded. Use terrain masking, if the map allows it (fly behind villages and tree lines and contours).

8)(for any battle type) - any AAA assets that do reveal themselves as you bumble round the battlefield, engage with arty assets ASAP. Remembr where they are, for future route panning.

Air desant is not a great deal of use in the face of any main-force enemy, or even a halfway organised one. Crete for example.

It can be useful against a low tech enemy (e.g. Viet Cong, Mujadeen) if in the assault (lower numbers (points) of defenders). But even then - a "crash bang" insertion can be costly if you choose an overwatched LZ or happen to choose an ingress route which has all his AAMG covering it, so you SHOULD scout out the planned approach line and DZ for a few moves with recce/attack helo teams before deciding where the slicks should go. (slicks to stay waiting in the rear and preferably behind masking terrain while you scout with other assets).

There is no place in modern warfare for jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes on big handkerchiefs. This should only be contemplated in areas with nil or almost nil enemy presence. (In other words, where the drop will be mainly "administrative" in nature). Not unless you like the enemy to have a bit of target practice. Again - see Crete. See D-Day for a successful use of the paper hankie method (Drop where the enemy generally is NOT, bar a few sentries etc and do it at night! .

The big force-multiplier with helo transport is really the repositioning of your rear-line or reserve assets (e.g artillery or mortars say). They are really just fast trucks!.

Cheers
Andy

[c_of_red]

I most strongly disagree about the 'meat bombs'. Paras have their place and time. They just must be used in quanity. I NEVER drop less then a battalion and NEVER on the first turn. I prefer to wait until my opponent is thourghly committed on the firing line, then I drop the paras on his rearmost v-flags or on his arty park. 90% of the time When I drop 70 to 80 para squads in his rear on turn 18 of a 25 turn game, I can hear the screams 2 time zones away. The problem is keeping my main forces alive long enough to put the knife in his back.
By waiting until the later stages of the game, the AD is pretty much wore down and or out of ammo. Like anything else in SP, its a combined arms deal. If you don't have air support, you don't buy paras. Plus it helps to have as many small mortars (81's or 83's) as you can get without skewing your force structure. Every time you get a sign of AD, drop some mortars on it. Normally a few dozen air craft will swamp the AD. That means when you load your air transport atthe start of the game, you need to plan out your fight right then and there. You can do that most of the time with a para-drop, since you will have the initative for that turn. The transport planes enter in roster order, unless you want to juggle them around, which isn't a very good idea. So you want to put your better units ( experience and anti-tank units) in the later arriving aircraft. I like to concentrate my drops, although there are circumstance where a dispersed drop is better. That is mostly on a map with shotgun flags and rough terrain.
It's costly, since you will need 9 companies of elite troops, which will set yuou back a ways. Plus the transport and some SEAD to ride shotgun. I figure 4 to 5 K points for a drop. So you need to be playing a 10K point battle to even think about it. I have never lost a battle where I got my paras on the ground. I did tie one once, but that was against a wily old vet and he still hasn't quite forgiven me. The very best part is that from the next game on, your opponent will be looking over his shoulder for those devils in baggy pants.
Plus it's a hoot to watch the replay.

[c_of_red]

Mustang, the Farmer saw the Helio. He lined up his trusty blunderbus and squeeeezzed the trigger. There was a loud bang and a cloud of black powder smoke. The Helio fell from the sky.
Those are the actual events that happened as agreed to by both the farmer and the Helio crew. Now as to which of the rounds that were put into the Helio caused it to quit flying, that is a matter that can be debated. Differring claims from both sides. But the facts are clear. The Helio stopped flying due to battle damge caused by small arms fire. The LAST small arm to hit the Heilo was a 150+ year old smooth bore musket. Here is another little fact. After that incident, the Army started their re-write of the book on Helio tactics.

[Mobhack]

Now - APC troops.

Some have opined that these are useless.

Not so - if used properly.

I am not a great fan of the "everything plus the kitchen sink" AIFV. These are really too expensive for the task in question - moving grunts from fighting position to fighting position, and protecting them from MG and rifle and HE fire as they do so. I would rather have the ATGM on another dedicated platform - e.g an accompanying BRDM-sagger platoon.

Infantry are not expendable, but APC must be considered so - they are just tin taxis. If the APC is getting to the cost of a MBT, something is wrong. (Or, you have an army rich enough to afford them !

If I have such APC in a campaign core - I am willing to lose them, if it saves a rifle section or MBT which has built up hard-won experience. Experienced core APC are nice to have - but not necessary as they are really just there as a taxi service.

I prefer the BTR type of APC. I like one with a small but useful autocannon, if I can get it. Fast is good. Useful cannon depends on time frame. It has to be able to reasonably reliably duff up enemy APC and light recce vehicles. The 14.5mm is useful against most NATO APC, the problem ones being marders, Bradleys, and Warriors when they arrive. FV432, M113 types with only an MG they eat for breakfast. Any armour beyond basic bullet-proofing is only useful if it buys you protection against the main enemy APC-cannon threat. If you really cannot defend against say 30mm cannon, a few points of armour is wasted points. use "hide with pride" tactics in that situation.

Essentially - the APC should not be too expensive (Unless this buys something concrete against the current enemy. Marder with ATGM may have enough defensive armour to be immune from a soviet force who uses only BTR, with the accompanying tanks doing the execution of any enemy MBT that threaten them, with some help from the mounted ATGM. But I would still take the marders sans ATGM, and offload the ATGM task to overwatching dedicated missile carrier, given the choice).

As to APC with thermal sights - nice to have, but if accompanied by MBT and light scout cars/tanks/dedicated AT vehicles which DO have thermals, not really that vital. If you have the option - possibly only equip the lead company team of the attack with the thermal-equipped model, any supporting teams may possibly be better value without it, and the excess points spent on say a bit more artillery, or ammo carriers or a few more inf-SAM etc.

The turreted MG (and the 2-MG punch of the BTR is good, also the long range of the 14.5 can be useful for e.g picking off morars left out in the open) is ideal for infantry support one you have dismounted. If there is no AT weapon threat - keep the APC 1-2 hexes behind the walking dismounts, and use to fire at infantry and MG etc in support.

The HS-30 with its 20mm, is another APC I like (and in its time frame is one of the few APC with a decent anti-APC cannon). Also the early marder without the expensive ATGM, if fighting the soviets - it is a reasonable buy versus 14.5mm pact APC, but the 73mm BMP cannon if met is a problem if it is allowed to connect.

It is the job of the accompanying MBT to defend the APC against threats from enemy MBT or APC/AIFV which are too much for them to handle. APC should never act unaccompanied by thier "Big Brothers"!. The MBT should move first, then the APC. The MBT should execute any enemy MBT ASAP, and then move on to accompanying APC. If the APC have a useful cannon - fire them after the MBT and at the enemy APC. If the enemy APC is an AIFV and it has moved, its missile system will be useless. (one reason I like to offload that task to dedicated ATGM carriers in overwatch!

If loaded APC are in a situation where they have been caught in a bad position, and you cannot motor out of it etc, then offload the infantry, they may survive the next turn even if the APC do not. APC are expenable assets, remember. You can always use a surviving APC once offloaded to pick up the straggler squad whose ride has been trashed later on. Meantime, assuming he gets his current headache sorted out, he can march towards the battle on "shanks pony". He will still usually be much closer to the action than any leg grunts.

In the defence, APC infantry are useful as they can be repositioned quickly, unlike leg elements. But I would probably tend to keep an APC co (+tank platoon) in reserve, and use leg rifle coys dug in as the main force (with a tank platoon supporting each dug in coy).

The AIFV can be useful in the defence if its missile is worthwhile for the period, and you have a useful LOS. That is because it will be relatively stationary, unlike in the advance. If you have the points, it may be worth considering an AIFV mech unit defensively. (But it may be better buying some dismounted milans and ordinary cheapo APC !)

The defensive is about the only place I would use AIFV as the missile is useful for thinning out the attackers units, provided they are reasonably vulnerable to HEAT, and provided there are reasonably long lines of fire. But these will still be a back-up for the MBT who should be the main killer element. I'd still rather use a useful (minimum effective cannon armed) APC for the APC role, and separate the ATGMs onto a dedicated platform like a BRDM though.

In the advance - the APC (almost) always follow the MBT. (the 2 scout car section accompanying advances ahead of the company of course!). With the Soviet style 3 tank platoon and 1 attached APC platoon, the APC is primarily there as spotter/security (e.g. the enemy try to sneak up assaulting inantry or inf-at) and to sniff out close terrain.


Once the enemy AT threat is eliminated (your MBT have executed all visible MBT), the APC (even an MG armed one) is a mobile MG pillbox. Use it first, ahead of the riflemen to biff up soft targets, assuming you are out of RPG range. If there are enemy squads in RPG range - use the acompanying MBT to supress these before opening up with the APC armament. Then use the infantry small arms, or move them if the enemy is now supressed enough. Keep a tank with all shots remaining as a reserve though - your grunts may spot a significant previously unspotted element at the end of the turn, so keping a tank of the supporting tank platoon loaded up with shots in reserve is wise.

APC should never be exposed to any significant AT threat.

The key thing to a mech infantry approach is to avoid entering open killing grounds (threat exposure) as much as is possible. Use the mobility of the APC and accompanying tanks (never leave them alone, always have "big boys" to protect them!) to use covered approaches towards where you want to go. (dark and smoke can do this job). Each company team (tank heavy or mech heavy) should have a scouting section - even 2 jeeps will do at a pinch - clearing the intended route ahead, but not too far ahead that they are unsupported though. When you anticipate contact, work over the planned route with at least a section of mortars just ahead of the scout element as a delousing plan - and once you bounce him, you now have some arty on-task in the contact zone to quickly adjust onto the actual contact. You may even blow up an enemy vehicle and get a clue from the wreck!.(consider buying ammo supply if you plan to continuously pound the ground as delousing).

Because your tanks have accompanying infantry elements, they can fight in close terrain with more confidence than your tanks-only tread-head opponent. You can use a wood say to laager up and fight him from ambush and sniping positions, and the supporting infantry now make his job of trying to outflank you through the woods a more "interesting" experience, because the tread-head did not bring any infantry to the party. (Also - tread-head types who ignore infantry usually also often ignore arty

Having said all the above, my preferred combat solution (a group tasked with taking an objective cluster of a 3 objective map) is basically the German solution (at least I have been told they do teams this way). Here, instead of cross-attaching platoons to make integrated mixed type company teams, we instead marry up a pure tank coy with a pure mech inf coy, which then operate in close cooperation as a combat group. (presumably the more senior coy commander of the 2 coys is in tactical command). So my combat group of choice looks like:
1 Tank coy
1 APC coy
(where every APC platoon marrys up with its corresponding MBT platoon)
Plus - if not already provided from the tank or inf coy above (integrated support platoon say):
+ 1 or preferably 2 recce sections (prefer something useful like scimitar, ie can reliably kill light armour, than a ferret if using light tanks/armour cars), otherwise a BRDM type platoon with integral scout team dismounts.
+ 2 sections of 2-3 SPM for delousing/close support
+ 1 or 2 sections of AAA assets (gun or missile)
+ 1 battery of 105mm+ arty dedicated to the direct support of the group
(if it is acting as the point group of an attack/assault, then at least a batallion of medium arty dedicated to delousing its intended approach march to the objective)
(optional)
- tank destroyer team (gun or missile, or inf APC carried dismounts). If my MBT can handle anything the enemy has, I usually do not bother with ATGM vehicles. This team (e.g in a campaign core) may well be the only AIFV type mech platoon I use (e.g a BMP platoon where the main force uses BTR), as a flank security element/deep reserve.
- Ammo units (use to resupply the mortars, tank destroyers, and also may be useful for cannon armed APC which have low ammo burst capacity, or tanks where the critical rounds are low (e.g if using T-5X which have only 4-5 HEAT rounds, and the OPFOR has say Centurions..)) Add to taste.

Remember that using combined arms tactics, the sum is greater than the constituent parts. One of the few things in life where 2+2!=4 !

Cheers
Andy

[Mustang]

Air drops are the cheapest and safest way to get a lot of troops from point A to point B. It gives you a great deal of flexibility because you can drop them almost anywhere (provided enemy AD isn't too dense), and the enemy will have to divert a significant force or watch his rear areas get toasted.

The only time you don't want to use them is when the enemy has too much armor and/or artillery (or SAMs, of course), but other than that the paratroopers will do just fine defensively, tying down enemy.

edit: Didn't see your APC post, Mobhack. But it looks like I agree with you that you should only buy light APCs for the most part.

Interesting thing about the helo, C_of_Red. What's your source? I heard it was just some propoganda move, and I don't see how a musket could cause enough damage to down an Apache. Where did it hit?

[narwan]

c_of_red said:
When I drop 70 to 80 para squads in his rear on turn 18 of a 25 turn game, I can hear the screams 2 time zones away. The problem is keeping my main forces alive long enough to put the knife in his back.
By waiting until the later stages of the game, the AD is pretty much wore down and or out of ammo.

Well, dropping para's (in any numbers) on or close to VH's in the last stages of the game is generally considered to be a 'gamey' tactic. It makes use of the purely abstract system of a fixed (and limited) number of turns. As your own post implies, the enemy ground forces would usually be strong enough to chew up the airbornes if they had had the time. Which in RL they most likely would have. Last stage paradropping is mostly just a trick to avoid the deadly counterattacks that are sure to follow.
Although it is not often explicitly stated when setting up PBEM games, dropping para's near the end (or even in any of the second half of a game) is considered 'not done'.

Narwan

[c_of_red]

By who? This is the first I have ever heard of that. Greybeard wasn't thrilled when I dropped on him, but he didn't say anything about gamey. I think he would have if he thought it was. He went to some length to explainto me some of the other things he thought were gamy. Or is gamey anything that gives your opponent the advantage? Why exactly is it gamey? How many real world examples would you need to retract your statement, if not change your opinion? Is turn 10 ok, but turn 11 bad? Do you always expect your enemy to co-operate with you? DO you schedule his air strikes and arty fires for him? What is the difference? I'll bet you hate pre-game arty, which was SOP in WW2 for the Allies AND the Germans, if they had the ammo. Some of the Soviet pre-game bombardments went on for days. In DS in '91, the pregame air stikes went on for weeks. If I could do that would you consider it 'gamey'?
I'm am straining to be polite here. But I will say I have never heard such tommyrot.