Super snipers???

[narwan]

True, but 'dealing with' in that example probably means forcing the sniper to relocate or pack it in for the day. It's unlikely to have actually hit him.

If you do want to take him out you have to plaster his area (hex) and get some footsoldiers (preferably with rifles) close to him at the same time. These have the thnakful job of spotting him (which usually means the sniper can spot them too) and 'dispatching him to elsewhere'.

Sniper in RL tend to be very conservative with their own life, they don't take many big chances and don't go on firing till they're taken out. They tend to get out when they suspect they may have been located (which isn't the same as spotted in the game!). Sniper units in the game rarely act like that. At least not in my experience, they seem to have 'last man standing' as their motto. Which is one of the reasons I try to minimise their presence in my games. I don't think they are modelled very accurately, which is probably due to the game specifics and mechanics (for example no officers or tankcommanders, etc to specifically target).

Narwan

[PlasmaKrab]

Narwan, actually many (if not all) units in the game go for last-man stands. The only way you can have IA-controlled forces to back off is to force them into retreat, and since snipers generally have the highest morale rating, they tend to be the last men standing (instead of running away, I mean). Now that works better with 'integrated' troop-level marksmen, once more, but the game has just been designed from the beginning to account for troops standing up to the last man or running away, and we have to deal with it. Only you, player, have the power to order backing away.

[narwan]

Sorry, I was referring to human vs human play, not vs the AI. It's human opponents who tend to use snipers in 'last man standing' tactics too. I've rarely if ever seen someone withdraw a located sniper and redeploy him elsewhere.

In RL snipers have a lot more leeway in what to do and how to do it than regular units. When confronted with opposition, they tend to go away. Regular units have their orders and are supposed to carry them out, not second-guess them. Well, you know what I mean.

Narwan

[Siddhi]

yes cannot imagine they hit anything much at all, however the sniping did stop - which effectivly is a mission accomplished. the only 'traditonal' way of dealing with snipers is infantry sweep, counter-sniping and arty. however if you just chose the most likely hide and blaze away you force a relocation as well.

personally i think the best way to model this is the game is to put a quite low moral on snipers.

OTOH one problem is that - unlike in the orginal SPMBT vehicles that were unbuttened when attacked had a signifcant chance of suffering 1 casulty. this was highly realistic, focing units to button up when they were in high-threat enviornments and cutting down on reaction/detection ranges. in winspmbt i have never seen this happen (e.g. a sniper taking out a tank commander, say). pitty.

[Siddhi]

a lower moral rating will usually suffice, i wonder however what would happen if there was a high rally rating at the same time - would it cancel out, or would you get that highly elusive -retreat then rally effect? would be great

[PlasmaKrab]

Guys consider that a sniper's "freedom of movement" when trying to escape detection and remain pointed on a target, can very well go unnoticed in 50m-hexes. Same with tanks or airplanes and invisible "evasion manoeuvers".
However, consider that even with a relatively high speed (generally 6) it will be hard for a human player to relocate a sniper team under fire (or nearly so) without losing either his positional advantage or the sniper or both.

[Artur]

I am glad I can read so many interesting posts in this thread.
Let me add one more thing. I recently attended a lecture about the US military operation in Fallujah 2004. There it was told that snipers caused the hightest number of casualties on both sides. That says something.

Reading all the posts above I guess the best solution would be to seriously increase the price of the snipers. (Maybe also make the rout a bit sooner.) Don,Andy your thoughts.

Artur.

[DRG]

My feelings are that snipers are SUPPOSED to be a PITA and their cost is just fine the way they are.

The bargin basement US "sniper" with no "fire control" or "RF"
or "vision" gear is an unadjusted 12 points. If you are buying infantry that the same price as an entire squad ( if you want to check I'm looking at the following units in MOBHack
414
416
417
419
431
432

Those are just basic rifle squads that have a 12 base cost in MOBHack so all this will cost a bit more in the game but so will the sniper.

Now..... that 12 cost sniper is the low end of things. He's not really going to do much and he costs the price of a squad. Do you really think he needs to be worth more? The next sniper up the ladder costs 28 points and all he has is 5 FC and 5 RF..... hardly a terrorist and he costs more than two squads. By the time you work your way up what could be called a super sniper in the "Hvy Abn Sniper" ( unit 252 ) who has full vision gear and really IS something to worry about he costs an unadjusted 129 points. ( 155 points by the time you add in moral and experience modifiiers ) Even at 129 points that's the cost of 10 regular squads. It's nearly 13 at 155 points.

If you are betting the mortgage on the results of one game do you buy 13 squads or one two man team?

Admittedly most snipers that could be considered a PITA cost around 45-48 points. That's still 3 - 4 squads of men or, in the case of artillery.... the price of 1 US 155mm LW FH. Should ONE sniper be worth more than a 155 FH??

I'll give you a test to run. June 1970 USA vs USA ( call this a MILES test in training ) on one side by a HQ and three of the best snipers you can get for that era then in opposition buy as many "Rifle Platoon VN" as you can. You will have most likely 10 squads ( plus a HQ ). Put them all on a 40 x 40 map and let me know who wins. I'm not betting on the snipers unless they are in skilled human hands ( and that would be long shot odds )

Here something else to consider. A 1970 era US off map 155 battery costs 360 points in the game. ( 60 rounds per gun ) That gives you two platoons of 155's and 120 rounds of ammuntion. That about 20 turns of shooting. ( I used up 9 rounds per battery in my test in 3 turns ) 360 divided by 20 is 18 points per shoot. The best sniper for the era costs 42 points ( these are unadjusted base OOB costs )so for the price of just over two turns of 155 fire you can buy one (1) sniper. I'll take the 155's any day.

So no, I don't think snipers need to be more costly. What I think is players need to review their tactics for dealing with snipers

Don

[DRG]

OK, here's another test for those of you that think snipers are too cheap. It's a variation on the challenge I suggested in the previous email with the three top of the line snipers only this time you take three snipers and your HQ , same era ( 1970 ) on the same sized map then set the battle up so that you buy for the AI all the "Rifle Platoon VN" you can buy when the battle is set to the AI player 2 advance but with the battle set to AI P2 deploy. You will be fighting your three snipers and HQ against 23 squads and a HQ. Let me know if you think the Snipers are still too cheap. Everyone who thinks the snipers are too powerful needs to try this before replying. If I read these posts correctly those three snipers should have NO problem containing those 23 squads.

Have fun. I don't think most players could contain ten squads with those three snipers let alone the 23 their cost allows you to buy in opposition in this case

Don

[Artur]

Ok Ok Ok . If the cheapest sniper is worth a squad It's ok with me. Regarding US forces I guess that is all right..

What I tried is 1970 green vs red. I played with them a lot recently. There a normal inf squad is 9 pts while a sniper is 5 pts. I made a scenario where a platoon of red inf went against 7 Green snipers. The scenario had a 20X20 plain map - I know it favours the snipers but of course you never put a sniper in dense terrain...

I played from both sides and won from both sides. However with the snipers it was more easy for me even though the cheap snipers were aiming awfully. The reds simply routed off the map or when they won the took serious casualties.

Artur.