obat36 East Germany

[Mobhack]

thanks - these modes should be in the next release.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Shan said:
Here you go--- I was not at home when I posted yesterday so I didnt't have the source or the game ready to check,,, you may forgive me... but I do have a source, and a very good one in my opinion, see below. And, by the way: You are asking me for my source on the non-availability of T-62s and the limited number of BMP-2s... fair enough--- but then, as a conclusion from your statement above, I would call it a bit naive to include T-62s in the OOB of just about any Soviet client state per se, with a motto like 'Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong',,, as they were 'standard-issue' - without any source?

If you want to quote what we say...fair enough but DO try to refrain from making up quotes based on assumptions...OK?

NOWHERE did we say "Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong" and that CERTAINLY isn't any kind of "motto" we have. What you were ASKED was to provide us with a source to back up what you claimed so we have a solid reason to removed them from the OOB. Fair enough, you did and the changes have been made to the OOB. WHY they were added in the first place IDK because neither Andy or I wrote the OOB's and we don't ask the OOB writers to waste precious time to provide source info to justify every single entry in a OOB. We assume if it's been entered there must be a reason even if it's just an assumption based on thin information and sometimes the information is difficult to find. If someone comes along YEARS after the OOB was originally released and is the ONLY person in all that time to have ever claimed that the East Germans never used T-62's then I think you'll understand WHY we say "prove it"

Don

[Sewter]

In regards to the tanks of East Germany:

"East Germany
Ground Forces

The ground forces in 1987 made up 68 percent of the NVA, having a total strength of 120,000, of whom 60 percent were draftees. Ground forces included two tank divisions, four motorized rifle regiments, two surface-to-surface missile brigades, two artillery regiments and one antiaircraft artillery regiment, eight air defense regiments, one airborne battalion, two antitank battalions, and several support units.

Because East Germany produced primarily military supplies--such as computers, clothing, military vehicles, and communications equipment--rather than arms, major items of weaponry and equipment were obtained from the Soviet Union. Of the equipment used by the ground forces, only some wheeled vehicles were of East German design and manufacture. Some small arms and ammunition were also of local manufacture but were licensed copies of Soviet designs. The NVA had purchased 170 RM-70 122mm multiple rocket launchers and a number of FUG-70 scout cars from Czechoslovakia, but most of its weapons and equipment were of Soviet design and manufacture. In 1985 the tank inventory included an estimated 1,500 T-54s, T-55s, and T-72s assigned to units and approximately 1,600 more armored vehicles, including T-34s, in storage. Reconnaissance units were equipped with 1,000 BRDM-1 and BRDM-2 scout cars. Motorized infantry units had 1,000 BMP infantry combat vehicles, as well as 1,500 BTR-50Ps, BTR-60Ps, and BTR-152s and 200 BTR-70s (armored personnel carriers) and MT-LBs (multipurpose towing and transport vehicles). The artillery inventory included the following guns: 400 D-44s and self-propelled SD-44s (85mm); M-1931s and M-1937s (122mm); and 72 M-46s (130mm). There were also 108 M-1937 gun howitzers and 54 self-propelled M-197 and D-20 (152mm) gun howitzers, as well as various other kinds of howitzers: D-30s, M-1938s (M-30s), and self-propelled M-1974s (122 mm). Other artillery assets were 250 mortars (120mm); 24 FROG-7 and 18 SCUD-B tactical missile launchers; and multiple rocket launchers, which included 108 BM-21s, Czechoslovak RM-70s (122mm), and BM-24s (240mm) (see fig. 14).

The NVA's antitank inventory consisted of 120 T-12 guns (100mm) and various quantities of AT-3 SAGGER (including self-propelled BRDM-2s) and AT-4 SPIGOT antitank guided weapons. In terms of air defense assets, the East German ground forces had ninety-six self-propelled ZSU-23-4 guns, as well as SA-4, SA-6, and SA-9 antiaircraft missiles."

Data as of July 1987
(Library of Congress Country Studies)

But, in considering the potential battles with East Germany, we must remember that the Soviet Army (GSFG)had over 5000 of their own tanks, the majority being the T-72, but also included the T-62, T-64A (Mid-1970s) and the T-64B (Early-1980s). This is interesting, and should be considered while in a campaign with East Germany, as there would be near certainty of Soviet armor. Below is quoted from the same source as above:

"The Group of Soviet Forces in Germany

The westernmost and most formidable concentration of Soviet armed might outside the borders of the Soviet Union is the GSFG. In 1987 this force of about 380,000 men, organized into 20 ground force divisions and one air army and stationed entirely in East Germany, was over twice the size of the NVA.

...The First Guards Tank Army, headquartered at Dresden, included four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division; the Second Guards Army, at F�rstenberg, had one tank and two motorized rifle divisions; the Eighth Guards Army, at Weimar-Nohra, had one tank and three motorized rifle divisions; the Twentieth Guards Army, at Eberswalde, had three motorized rifle divisions; and the Third Shock Army, at Magdeburg, had four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division. In addition to the necessary artillery units at army and division levels, artillery support was provided by an independent division of rocket troops and artillery--the Thirty-fourth Artillery Division--stationed at Potsdam-Elstal and directly subordinate to the GSFG. A Spetsnaz (see Glossary) company was assigned to each army, and an independent Spetsnaz brigade was stationed in Neuruppin. Air support was provided by the Twenty-fourth Air Army, with headquarters at W�nsdorf. It is considered the best-equipped part of the Soviet air forces. In 1987 about 80 percent of the 1,000 to 2,000 aircraft were potential carriers of nuclear weapons."

This is why the A-10 was developed, in regards to actual armor numbers .

[Shan]

Alright guys, I am sorry for some of the wording in my last post, I have to admit I was a bit angry - so, next time, I'll post only when I have the source at hand, so we'll avoid that someone might think this is a statement without any back-up. As for the last post here by Sewter - it confirms what I found i my book. If u need any more details on the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee), then I'll look it up for u!

[Shan]

I noticed some wrong introduction dates in the new OOB - correct ones should be:

2S3M: Introduction '78-86

2S1: Introduction '81-88

(source: see above)

Another thing: They probably didn't have that 82mm Vasilyok grenade launcher/anti-tank gun, at least it isn't mentioned among all the other grenade launchers + anti-tank weapons.

Another thing: I know the NVA had both the armored and the un-armored version of the Czech-built RM-70 MLR... I found that it's never armored in any country in the game, and probably right so, as only the cab has thin armor, not the rocket packs.

[Smersh]

great work in improving the East German OOB.

[mr_clark]

On the other hand my copy of "UNsere Armee f�r Frieden und Sozialismus-25Jahre Nationale Volksarmee"
Does state on Page 377: "Such upgrades included improved versions of the vernable T-55 and the modern Soviet T-62 tank."
This passage refers to upgrades in the late 1970s, and this in connection to the claim of my Grandfather, Lieutenant Colonel Willi M�ller, leads me to believe that there were indeed T-62 in the NVA.
UNfortunately neither he nor this or any other book I own does state numbers for that claim, but if we agree on 24 BMP2 I think we must include T-62s as well-

[PlasmaKrab]

That's maybe a bit far-fetched, but couldn't this be a typo? The book mentioned should date back to 1980-81, right? That's about the time when the first T-72s should have become available in GDR if I'm not mistaken. Couldn't that have been about these first T-72s? In 1980, the T-62 wasn't exactly the most modern of Soviet tanks anymore, even for the NVA.
Could you tell us what the original sentence was?

And that's good to have first-hand sources! May I also ask where your Grandfather served, out of curiosity? I mean, the result wouldn't have been the same if he heard about the T-62 while in was leading a tank unit or, say, in Versuchstruppen or material command.

Thanks for the sources anyway!

[mr_clark]

Hmm thanks for mentioning the typo
I was at my uncles house on christmas and he has a second production run version of the book and there you see it actually says T-72 in there...

I also talked to my grandpop again.
It seems they actually tested T-62 near Stendal in the late 1970s, seems they got em directly from the soviets shipped over just for that. Seems they were quite happy about that tank and there were even some typed up for purchase but that was cancelled when the actualy order for T-72s went out 81.
"Funny" thing is he was quite sure about it when we discussed it all when helped a little for an earlier SPMBT build, even claimed he has seen upgraded variants, but that then might have been T-72s or something.

Until the 1973 my Grandpa was Batallion CO in the "Erzgebirge" near the FRG/GRD/CZ border.
After that he was in "Wehrbezirkskommando" Potsdam responsible for the seciton regarding mobilization of regulars and reserves, and then then from 1982-87 he was first assistant Chief of Staff and then Chief of Staff for the whole Kommando.
Apart from that my uncle's did spend their three years in the mid 80s and my father was in the border guards until 'the end'... Was even scheduled for duty in Berlin on November 11th 1989...

[Smersh]

problem in 1981 OBB for E. Germany:2nd line tanks have a T-55A with a newer gun then the standard tank company's T-55A. The 2nd line version has model 1977 gun, with higher sabot penetration, the standard has a 1960 model gun with lower sabot penetration.