Rant: Evil Doer's Strike Again.

[Captain Kwok]

Anyways, you should be ranting about the evil corporations that are running your country.

[Atrocities]

Down with Microsoft, The power companies, big oil, and safeway!

[Will]

AT, if you really want Microsoft, power companies, big oil, and safeway to go down, Bush isn't the candidate you want since he's pretty much in bed with all of them. And Kerry is in bed with a bunch of other corporations. Nader is probably the guy to go for, since he pissed off all the corporate-types a long time ago. The Republican Party has been helping Nader out too, so they must want you to vote for Nader

[Atrocities]

I check, he is only in bed with big oil. So he had better buck up and make the sacrafice then.

[Fyron]

Safeway groceries? It is owned by Vons now, you know...

[Atrocities]

I did not know that. Thanks. I thought they were still owned by KKR. Ooops. See what happens when you don't do your research.

[Katchoo]

Atrocities, I love you man, but are you seriously telling me that you're going to support a man who's authorized the killing of over 10,000 Iraqi people that had NOTHING to do with 9/11?

If another country (non-superpower) invaded another, weaker, country on false and exaggerated information (as the US has done), then the UN (US included) would be screaming for the head of the Leader of that invading country, and a War Trial would be on the horizon. Outside the US, people are looking at George Bush as a War Criminal, and every action he and his Administration has taken in regards to Iraq continue to lend credence to this view.

Supporting Bush is an insult to the nearly 1000 American soliders that have been sacrificed for this misbegotten War. Those American brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers have been lost for what? Removing Saddam from power? What exactly had Saddam done to the US in the past 5-10 Years? The answer is nothing.

Osama Bin Laden remains free, and he's the toad that ordered the 9/11 attack.

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[Atrocities]

Atrocities, I love you man,but are you seriously telling me that you're going to support a man who's authorized the killing of over 10,000 Iraqi people that had NOTHING to do with 9/11?

I love you to man , and no I am not supporting him because of his war record. I am supporting him because I do not like Kerry, as he is nothing more than an opportunistic liar who promises us a better tomorrow but has no intention on delivering. Bush, although flawed, is a far better choice. Kerry has been in the Senate a very long time and he has done nothing of consequence except to get rich.

And to be honest, Bush never ordered the deaths of 10,000 Iraqi�s. The wording of that statement is inflammatory. It should read,

"The war on terrorism, instigated by the horrific acts of 9-11 have lead our great nation into a war of moral choices. To do the right thing over the objections of world opinion and take the war to any nation that would willingly harbor, support, or defend terrorism and or terrorist. To that end, the path of righteousness has led us to the shores of Iraq where many have died, and many more are going to as we continue to fight the good fight against those who would kill innocent women and children. Iraq is the chosen battleground for this fight against evil. Away from Pakistan and their nuclear weapons of mass destruction, we wage this war of idealism that the right for all people to live free and to live free from tyranny and terrorism is the right thing to do. "

Was Saddam a terrorist, yes? Just ask those who were terrorized by him.

Military Fact: It is better that you choose the place and time for the battle. Iraq is that place, and the time is now. And oh look, the scumbag, mind warped, twisted, honor less, nimrod terrorists of the Arab world are flocking to Iraq in droves. Seems to me that this tried and true tactic has worked.

If another country (non-superpower) invaded another, weaker, country on false and exaggerated information (as the US has done), then the UN (US included) would be screaming for the head of the Leader of that invading country, and a War Trial would be on the horizon.

I would say that you are right. 1991, Iraq invaded Kuwait and that is exactly what happened. However many Americans now believe that most of the European nations lost there stomach to stand up to Saddam and enforce the terms of the cease fire. They felt it was better to simply let him do as he pleased for the Last twelve years, prior to the war, and well, that dog just won�t hunt any more. You see, in that time Saddam continued to build up his military, he killed millions of Kurds, ordered the assignation attempt on George H. W. Bush, and had continued to disobey and disregard the terms of the cease fire by targeting US and allied planes. He took the money he got from food for oil sales and built lavish palaces while his people starved. Those who stood up to him, well we know what happened to them.

So should Bush now be called before a world court and tried for war crimes? Well no, in fact hell no. He should receive a medal for having the courage to what many European nations feared to do. Sometimes you must do what no other will do, and fight the bully on his terms. Bush did that, and now he is viewed as the bully. LOL! I often wonder what Europe would be like if the US had minded its own business and stayed out of the European conflict. Don�t get me wrong, I am glad that we didn�t, but I still wonder how that conflict would have turned out if we had.

Outside the US, people are looking at George Bush as a War Criminal, and every action he and his Administration has taken in regards to Iraq continue to lend credence to this view.

Really. And I suppose they also view Saddam as a War Hero?

I ask you, do you consider terrorist to be a form of bullying? (Bully being a person that goes around enforcing his will onto others through violence and intimidation.)

Ok let�s say for arguments sake that you agree that Terrorist are nothing more than bullies. What is the one thing a bully fears most? If you said someone who will stand up to him, well your right. Now I want you to think about this in those terms as you read what I have written.

A clear and unmistakable message had to be sent to Arab nations that the days of reserved responses were over. To prove this point we took on the two biggest bullies on the Arab block, the Taliban and Regime of Saddam Hussein. We took on the worst of they had to offer and by doing so, even without Europe�s support; we proved that our word does mean something. �We will take the fight to you if you harbor, support, or otherwise engage in any act of and for terrorism.� What Bush did, was to lead a united coalition of nations against two very bad Groups of men and their armies of darkness, and by doing so he prove a point that if we can take down the biggest bad asses on the block, then we can take the rest of them down, so pay attention to our warning. And you know what, it worked. Pakistan, Libya, Sierra, Saudi Arabia and the others got the message and are now playing ball.

Now there is no doubt that this is going to be a long and deadly fight, but we have no choice but to win. And not just in Iraq, but everywhere we go. We must stop the terrorism regardless of how bloody we become in the process.

Now I know that Iraq was really not a terrorist state per say, however Saddam was supporting terrorism by funding it. He was not a War Hero as the Europeans are now making it seem, and he was not a nice man. He was a very bad individual with aspiration for, and the means to obtain weapons of mass destruction. When we went in, we believed he had, in one form or another, WMD�s. Only until after it was all said and done did we discover that he, for likely the first time in his life, was kind of sort of telling us the truth. What can I say, hindsight is always 20/20. But now, after the fact, to call Bush a war criminal because we did not find WMD�s is like saying Church Hill was guilty of mass murder for ordering the carpet-bombing of Berlin. Its ludicrous to think that, and equally so in Bush�s case.

Many Americans believe that Europe does not have the balls to stand up against terrorist. They fear them like frightened little school children that would rather run home and cry to momma than stand up and fight. Just look at what happened in Spain. The terrorists attack a train station killing a hundred or more innocent people, and in response, the people of Spain vote out their government because their leaders supported the US. What does that tell the terrorists? I will tell you what it tells them. It tells them that they have won. If they can scare people into accepting their actions out of fear that they will continue, then the next attack will be even more deadly. You cannot reason with these kinds of people, for they only understand one language, and that is the language of the strong. Kill or be killed.

I ask you, would you want to live under the threat of that kind of black mail every day? Do what they want or they will blow up a train station or school?� No, of course I can�t think of anyone who would want to live under that kind of situation. So what do we do? Do we invent a time machine and go back and stop the invasion of Iraq? Will that help us? Or will it just simply give the terrorist a platform from where they could launch wave after wave of attacks against us. And what if Saddam did have a nuke, or acquired one? He would have held the entire Middle East hostage and nothing would have stopped him from using it against Israel.

We need to work from here to make a better tomorrow with the hope that we never see the day when terrorist hold our freedoms in the palm of their grubby little [censored] encrusted hands?

What is done is done. Saddam is no more. And it would be wise for those who live in Europe to remember what the Nazi had accomplished when they were left along and ignored as we were doing with Saddam. Remember, Saddam is directly responsible for the death of over a million Iraqi people. And our soldiers are not fighting Iraqi's, they are fighting militant Islamic extremists from many Arab countries who came to Iraq to do nothing but kill Americans. And what have they done, they have not only killed Americans, but Iraqi�s, Australians, Koreans, Brits, and many many others. Hell they cut off the heads of more than one of them, and you call Bush a War Criminal? If Bush is guilty of anything, it�s being man enough to stand up to these bastards and do the right thing. He took the fight to them, gave them a target, and now we are where we are and I hope that one day we can rid the earth of these maggot eating, bomb making, kid killing, psychopaths that kill in the name of God.

Supporting Bush is an insult to the nearly 1000 American soldiers that have been sacrificed for this misbegotten War. Those American brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers have been lost for what? Removing Saddam from power? What exactly had Saddam done to the US in the past 5-10 Years? The answer is nothing.

How many Americans died saving Europe from Nazi Germany? If memory serves, Germany was lead by only one man, and if we had �sacrificed� a 1,000 men to remove him from power before he could start the great Nazi war machine, then I would bet those men would have gone to their graves hero�s.

And for record, supporting Bush is not an insult to the fallen. To say otherwise is the insult. Many Oregon and Washington State Gaurds men and women have fallen in this war and the local news stations have conducted interviews with most of their families. And do you know what they all have said? Teary eyed and sobbing they praised their sons, daughters, brothers, fathers, and yes even mothers for doing the right thing and fighting as soldiers of the Untied States. Not one of them, not one, has ever said a bad thing about Bush. In fact most when asked, say they will vote for him again because they understand the sacrifice that their loved ones had lived and died securing. That says a hell of a lot about the American people and even more about your news sources. (That being that they are all full of [censored] for reporting such tripe.)

Of those soldiers interviewed both abroad and here at home, most believe in what it is they are being asked to do. They don�t want to die doing it, but they are willing to put themselves in harms way not for politics, but for each other. Of the men and women interviewed upon returning from Iraq, most say the same thing. They don�t understand why the news media�s are so hell bent on focusing on only the small fraction of negative things that go on, when there are so many good things happening. Most say that although the situation is dangerous, most Iraqi�s are glad that Saddam is gone, and they are more than thrilled that it was the Americans who finally came to their rescue. They are proud of what we are doing, and despite the constant bull**** from the world media, more and more Iraqi�s are offering support for the Americans and their allies and what it is they are trying to do.

Now please do not take this wrong, but why are you taking the side of Saddam Hussein? Bush is not a mass murder, nor was any of his predecessors. In the Last twenty years we have not deployed chemical weapons against our own people, nor we did not invade Kuwait and Iran. Additionally, aside from some questionable military practices recently, we have not tortured people to death, persecuted the innocent, or held sham elections where the people had two choices, vote for Saddam, or die. Our Last three sitting presidents never ordered the assassination of a former leader of another nations, nor have any of them supported or funded terrorism.

The role reversal that Bush is somehow the bad man and Saddam is the innocent victim is quite inappropriate.

I know that we have different opinions on these subjects, and I want you to know that I did read your post and I did try to understand your POV. I don�t know what else I can say other than I feel that Bush, despite his flaws, is simply a better choice than Kerry. Kerry has lied about a great many things, and I simply do not trust the man. If only we had a viable third option, but we don�t, so I am voting for the lesser of two evils.

What is important is that we all remember that nothing means anything for we are all going to die. All of this, every Last bit of it, will mean nothing in a hundred years.

So we can sit here and piss and moan about what has happened all we want, the truth is, it simply does not matter. The world will go round, and if we can keep from killing ourselves off, maybe one day we can all learn to live in peace. Until then, we will continue doing what we have since the dawn of our time; killing each other for BS reasons.

EDIT

Osama Bin Laden remains free, and he's the toad that ordered the 9/11 attack.

And I hope that one day we do capture him alive and he spends the rest of his life living in 5x8 cell eating pork and listening to rap music.

[Mephisto]

[quote]
Atrocities said:

So should Bush now be called before a world court and tried for war crimes? Well no, in fact hell no.

I agree, I don't see that Bush went into Iraq with the intend to kill innocent people.

�We will take the fight to you if you harbor, support, or otherwise engage in any act of and for terrorism.�

...or if we think you do, despite that we have no prove and all the intelligence services of the world tell us otherwise...

What Bush did, was to lead a united coalition of nations against two very bad Groups of men and their armies of darkness, and by doing so he prove a point that if we can take down the biggest bad asses on the block, then we can take the rest of them down, so pay attention to our warning.

Or, with other words: Might makes right so watch out.

We must stop the terrorism regardless of how bloody we become in the process.

Please tell me I read it another way then it is meant. Should the world be covered in blood for it? That's what the terrorist scums really want to see! Don't give them what they want!

He was not a War Hero as the Europeans are now making it seem, and he was not a nice man.

They don't make him any hero at all. We are quite aware what a man he was.

He was a very bad individual with aspiration for, and the means to obtain weapons of mass destruction. When we went in, we believed he had, in one form or another, WMD�s. Only until after it was all said and done did we discover that he, for likely the first time in his life, was kind of sort of telling us the truth. What can I say, hindsight is always 20/20.

That is the point that concerns Europe so much: We did tell it to the US all along but we got the impression that the US government wasn't listening. More, it didn't WANT to listen as it was already set to act, no matter what. That is concerning Europe! The terrorists are scum and we can expect no good. But if our trusted friend, the US, a nation that stands for freedom, liberty and reason, a fortress against tyrants starts not to listen to reason it is a scary thing to see.

But now, after the fact, to call Bush a war criminal because we did not find WMD�s is like saying Church Hill was guilty of mass murder for ordering the carpet-bombing of Berlin. Its ludicrous to think that, and equally so in Bush�s case.

Is it? It was a act of mass murder for the German Generals. How can slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians in a purely civilian area not be mass murder? All the nations in WW2 did it but that doesn't make it right. It was a war crime, Banned by the Geneva convention all along but no one cared. Did it have any effect? No. It was planned that it should break the moral of the population but it worked against none.

Many Americans believe that Europe does not have the balls to stand up against terrorist.

You are mistaken if you think so.

They fear them like frightened little school children that would rather run home and cry to momma than stand up and fight.

How do you know? Do you live here? Have you forgotten about all the Europe soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq? Please!

Just look at what happened in Spain. The terrorists attack a train station killing a hundred or more innocent people, and in response, the people of Spain vote out their government because their leaders supported the US.

Again, this is far from the whole truth. The Spanish government fell because the lied to the people telling them it was a group of terrorist unrelated to Al'Quida (spelling?) when it fact it was Al'Quida and they knew it all along. People don't like to be lied to.

What does that tell the terrorists? I will tell you what it tells them. It tells them that they have won. If they can scare people into accepting their actions out of fear that they will continue, then the next attack will be even more deadly.

I agree, unfortunately this is the impression it must have given to them.

You cannot reason with these kinds of people, for they only understand one language, and that is the language of the strong. Kill or be killed.

No, I refuse to become like them! I rather be killed but to become like them, to do, what they want: Crash the world into chaos and give up my personal liberties out of fear. No, I will not do this. They will NOT alter my way of living!

I ask you, would you want to live under the threat of that kind of black mail every day? Do what they want or they will blow up a train station or school?� No, of course I can�t think of anyone who would want to live under that kind of situation.

I would before I will hurt innocent people without proper proof that they aren't innocent. You, me and every man has inalienable rights, and one of them is live. Even the guilty ones do.

We need to work from here to make a better tomorrow with the hope that we never see the day when terrorist hold our freedoms in the palm of their grubby little [censored] encrusted hands?

I totally agree. My way to ensure this is just different from yours.

And our soldiers are not fighting Iraqi's, they are fighting militant Islamic extremists from many Arab countries who came to Iraq to do nothing but kill Americans. And what have they done, they have not only killed Americans, but Iraqi�s, Australians, Koreans, Brits, and many many others.

Correct, but like in Vietnam they US has a problem to bring this information to the affected people, mostly the Arab world. Less fighting, more improvement for the live of people in Iraq needs to be done and seen on the street and the media.

[Atrocities]

I think you summed it up best when you said "Might Makes Right." One day we will be on the recieving end of someones pay back.

You make your points very well Mephisto.

I really do not believe that the world has been plunged into chaos over the invasion of Iraq. I think the that perhaps the US Government wanted, as I said, to choose the time and place for the battle on terror and they chose Iraq two fold, one they would have centeral location in the heart of arab controlled middle east, and they got to take out one of the worst SOB's of the Last quarter century.

I honestly believe it was a dilibrate and intentional military objective to take on Iraq. This way our forces would have a solid base of operation if the need arose to take on other arab countries.

Now the ends should never justify the means, and lying to us about the objective may have been nessassary in order to preserve the hidden operational objectives of the real mission.

I simply do not know. I do know that many countries are peeved at us over this and I am sorry about that. I don't know what to say other than whats done is done, and I hope that eventually this dismal situation will improve and we all, every Last one of us including the Iraqi's, end up having better lives for it.

Our world is one of constant conflict and it has been so since the dawn of our time. No one knows what the next hundred years will bring, but I do honestly believe that what we have seen here over the Last three years is just the beginning. I fear that Kerry will win, he will do something stupid like re-odopt Clintons failed foriegn policies, cut the budge for the CIA, FBI, and Military, withdraw from Afgan and Iraq, and kiss the asses of the European nations like a good lap dog should. Clinton sold our economic future to the Chines, I fear Kerry will sell it to the European Union, and the terrorist.

I am sorry but I really don't like the man.