your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Vynd:
It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

While the VQ is certainly very adept at squashing indies, the King of All Fighters title really has always belonged to the Allfather, who is every bit as potent, and has many of the same attributes working for him, and has always been more rainbowy, with cheaper paths by far. His only real shortcoming is his nationally-restricted status.

On the other hand, with the VQ being nerfed largely to oblivion, the crown has more or less passed to the GK, being that the VQ is no longer affordable in the same role as before: The number of nations that you can squeeze a VQ out of is now far more restricted, and with the exception of those select nations, I, personally, have shifted to the GK for the rest.

[Pickles]

Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so I do not think they are thematic

doh! as others point out later in the thread

"bf ulm , abysia ."

ATM you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early, good middle, good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some other chasis could be boosted to close to her level (& cost) to create options for this role.

Pickles

edited typoes

[ August 02, 2004, 23:32: Message edited by: Pickles ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by Pickles:
Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so do not think they are thematic

"bf ulm , abysia ."

atm you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early good middle good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some otehr chasis could be booseted to close to her level (& cost) to leave options for this role.


Pickles

well i had in mind vq is undead so are ermor + pan cw
no blood is a good point though .
but once she is a real god she can create her own bloodslaves

i think raising something else to similiar strength as the vq is the wrong approach .

first some pretenders like the father of serpents should be nerfed up .
perhaps for these pretenders illwinter could disallow the rule : no troops , commander retreats if not immortal .
then the lions , snakes etc the various pretenders get would be a real small help.

only for the moloch the routing should be left otherwise he is a sc early game + cheapest fire bless chassis .

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vynd:
I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game.

The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.)

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game.

The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.)

---

yeah her immortality is a problem .
so you may chose what she should do :
still be quite dangerous unequipped / only low euquipped in many situations or extremely well euqipped .

she has built in so many things already .
flying , no need for boots of air , so she can take boots of quickness etc.

the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

the allfather is good too but restricted to vanheim only . if you spent lots of points in him it is a waste for vanheims good troops .

and he still may die unluckily .

with the vq you really can do everything she is the best allrounder .
mid-lategame you can either let her be a supporter by forging / summoning or turn her into at least a top 3 sc with euqipment .

because of their allround abilities she is still the best choice for the nations who can afford .
perhaps putting her to fire -100 resistence like the lich would solve that .

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
yeah her immortality is a problem .
so you may chose what she should do :
still be quite dangerous unequipped / only low euquipped in many situations or extremely well euqipped .

Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces. It's the immortality behavior, not the actual immortality, that makes immortality nifty: Immortals don't rout in dominion. The actual ability to reincarnate is merely "meh", as this implies you intended to lose anyway. Except for the nice, free "death express" ride back to your capitol, flying into a battle with intent to lose is still, well, losing.

she has built in so many things already .
flying , no need for boots of air , so she can take boots of quickness etc.

You pay for this privilege with a high point cost that got even higher, and relatively lackluster and unexceptional physical stats. While the ability to fly and be ethereal is great when you're pummelling indies, most of these attributes are negated or meaningless against another SC or pretender: Etherealness means crap when your opponents all have magic weapons. Flying does jack all when it just means you outrun your screen force and run smack into the line of fire, making yourself the magnet for anyone wanting a shot at something. Immortality is cool, but you're still getting your butt kicked. Lifesteal is nice, but then, anyone with wraithii or thorns can get that, too...and you probably want to give her a weapon anyway unless you want a shiny, new, Knife of the Damned.

the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure.

The carrion dragon has 3 slots in his dragon form....which is best when you have no item to give him. Later in the game, he can revert to his Carrion Lord form, itself a fairly burly chassis, with full slottage, retaining his sleep vine attacks nonetheless, and wear a full suit of gear.

the allfather is good too but restricted to vanheim only . if you spent lots of points in him it is a waste for vanheims good troops .

and he still may die unluckily.

Unluckily, or stupidly? It takes $20 on a hit-and-run scout to verify anything in the province. If you blindwarp into a province, it's your own fault. A VQ is not immune to this either, as dominion does not spread THAT quickly, and if you want to expand aggressively, you're flying out of your dominion, spreading it on the move. If you can only expand inside your dominion, you are moving more slowly than others can.

with the vq you really can do everything she is the best allrounder .
mid-lategame you can either let her be a supporter by forging / summoning or turn her into at least a top 3 sc with euqipment.

The new VQ is so hideously expensive that she will not really be affordable as such for most nations. The GK has taken over the crown for early SC/retired mage for most nations. You can take my word for this: I was, after all, the most noteworthy user of the old VQ, and most national builds I use are now GK builds instead.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces.

But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
You pay for this privilege with a high point cost that got even higher, and relatively lackluster and unexceptional physical stats.

Her point cost was _not_ high before 2.12. It was actually very inexpensive compared to every other pretender that could accomplish similar feats. It can't be that expensive either, since you're still using Phillinon.

Flying does jack all when it just means you outrun your screen force and run smack into the line of fire, making yourself the magnet for anyone wanting a shot at something.

I like that you are completely ignoring that the real point of flying for a SC is strategic maneuverability.

Lifesteal is nice, but then, anyone with wraithii or thorns can get that, too...

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

and you probably want to give her a weapon anyway unless you want a shiny, new, Knife of the Damned.

She's immortal. It doesn't matter if she gets a cursed weapon, since she can lose it at any time, and the curse doesn't hurt her.

The new VQ is so hideously expensive that she will not really be affordable as such for most nations. The GK has taken over the crown for early SC/retired mage for most nations.

The ghost king is easy to deal with in comparison to the VQ, since you only need to deal with him once. He also has to wear flying boots, which means that you either put jade armour on him, or lose a scripted spell to quickness.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It can't be that expensive either, since you're still using Phillinon.

Caelum can certainly afford the points, sure.

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

The ghost king is easy to deal with in comparison to the VQ, since you only need to deal with him once. He also has to wear flying boots, which means that you either put jade armour on him, or lose a scripted spell to quickness.

Or, as I mentioned, he could just not fly. And you say "you only need to deal with him once", but if you can deal with it once, you can deal with it more than once. Killed is killed. It doesn't matter if they come back immediately so you can kill them again, you're still advancing.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

Perhaps you haven't seen what a carrion dragon can do once Alteration 3 has been reached? Perhaps with enchantment 1 or 2 thrown in? Both the CD and the VQ can take most indies (probably less than 95% early though) and in general I'd say the CD has better odds in those fights. The VQ can get nailed by bad luck - a heavy blow getting through her ethereality can mess up her day, while the CD shrugs off those blows.

Perhaps more importantly - the CD doesn't _need_ to wait for Alt-3 or Ench-2. It's big and bad enough that it can solo provinces on turn 2 or 3, before the research gets done.

and he still may die unluckily .

This is the kicker for the VQ - any of the three can die attacking an unscouted province. Similarly, any of them can be killed in the late game. But the VQ shrugs it off nonchalantly, as long as it was friendly dominion.

*shrug* I still think immortality shouldn't give recuperation; that's one of the side effects that makes it too powerful, imo, even for the cost. Let the immortal heal all afflictions on immortal rebirth, and then they at least have to shuck off their equipment and get themselves killed when they have too many afflictions, instead of constantly healing them all along.