Lab Secrets

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Kel:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
Well - those Skull Mentors only cost 7 death gems if you're using a Dwarven Hammer

This can vary from situation to situation, as can everything, but generally speaking, I find that I rarely have a dwarven hammer early in the game, which is when I would use research bonus items, if I was going to use them.

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Really? One of the first earth items I try to forge is that dwarven hammer - the sooner you get one, the more benefit you can get out of it.

While the research items ... I'm past turn 40 in one game, and cranking out one to three Skull Mentors a turn, depending on how many researchers I'm adding that turn. Admittedly I've been much better off if I had started doing so earlier, but I'd always had a dim view of the research items before this game.

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And most nations have a hard time taking Magic 3

I tend to use magic 2 or magic 3 unless I am trying out a specific strategy that requires a lot of points elsewhere. It's not hard at all to get Magic 3 ! For me, personally, most of my nations start with order+3, luck-2, magic+3 before I even start fiddling with the other points.

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I like Magic 1 myself, and hate taking the high order, high Misfortune - like the old VQs, it just seems cheesy, even if it is a no-brainer with the Order/Luck scales being tied the screwed up way they are.

And I also tend to spend a lot of points on dominion (but then doesn't everyone) and usually 60-100 on a castle. (The 60 pointer is kind of my default, unless I'm trying something experimental, or am short / surplus points at the end.)

Oh, and almost always one additional magic path on a pretender, even if it hurts, and 80 points for free beer.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
And most nations have a hard time taking Magic 3 - AE and SG Ermor, and CW Pangaea can do it easily, but few others. Then again - I don't think the spectre is mindless, so it can gain experience and get better at researching.

Hmm? What game are you talking about Cain? Surely it's not Dom2. Magic 3 is one of the best MP scales in Dom2 in general, right after the Order 3, and even more important than Order for some nations. And taking Magic 3 is no more difficlut than taking one other scale 3. It is just 120 points, no more and no less. And in most situations it well worth it.

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I'm referring to the game where many nations and themes really require high order and sometimes high productivity as well. The game where the Magic scale has diminishing returns. You know - the ones where many nations don't have 40-120 free points from the temperature scale. The one where you got your butt handed to you by Cohen in a tournament...

Given how bad Cohen is, maybe your belief in Magic-3 helps to explain this?

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LOL. You don't need free point from temperature scales to get magic 3 Cain. Like I said, it's just 120 points. As for your weak attempt to flame - FYI I haven't lost a single game during Last 3 monthes or so, other than that 6AM tournament blitz that I was stupid enough to participate in. On the opposite, I have won all games that I've particiapted in this time period, and in the wining positions for those that are still being played. I strongly doubt you can say so about yourself. And yes, I take Magic 3 in every 2 out of 3 games in average I would say, depending what race/settings I am playing.


Anyway, the point is that magic is a great scale to take, since reseach is bread and butter of Dominions, no matter what you think about it. It is especially so for for medium and long games, which are often won and lost by reseach. I would say in general it is number two scale after the Order, although for some nations/themes with great national reseachers it is less importent, than for others.

[ July 26, 2004, 04:38: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Frosted Flake:
I tend to play nations with bad researchers (jotunheim is my favorite)

If you check out the following link: researcher cost, you'll find that Jotunheim is not a nation with "bad researchers". Not the best, not the worst. As player of Jotuns (see my AAR), I must take exception to your characterization. Hmmph!

[LintMan]

Originally posted by Borg:
- Is there a certain "Research Rate" that you like to maintain throughout the game ? How many RP's are you gunning for per turn ?

I don't have a specific research rate, but I tend to *constantly* buy mages - as many as I can afford/produce. (In my Last Arco game, on a huge, rich map, at the end game, I had 30+ astrologers, 80+ mystics, 50+ sages, plus numerous summoned mages (ie: lamia queens, lichs, ether lords, elemental kings/queens, Ivy kings, tartarian titans, etc). That was a bit insane.)

- Do you sometimes interrupt that research ? For shorter or longer periods ? Or do you maintain research at all times ?

Almost all the mages I recruit are used in my "magic pool", where they research unless I need them for something else. (I don't tend to use mages in combat until late game. Unless I'm really pressing to get to a specific research level, I usually freely divert mages from research to site searching by spell, item forging, or ritual spells. Since I'm mostly gem-limited in these activities throughout the game*, there's usually plenty of researchers still available.

* ie: early game, I have few mages, but also few gems to use for rituals and forging, while late game, I have many gems, but many mages to use.

- When you forge items. Do you appoint one or several mages to forge continually or do you sometimes forge 4, 5, 6 items at the same time - so you can fully equip one of your Commanders right away ?

Unless a mage has a special path combo that is need to cast or forge something, I don't dedicate them to forging or rituals. If I have the gems to do it and the need for fast results, I'd definitely pull as many mages onto forging duty as I needed to get the items built quickly. (Unless at the same time I had a special strategy that needed a certain amount of research completed ASAP, but that's not common for me)

- Is there maybe a certain Research level where you stop researching and go on the offensive, because you can cast all the spells you're looking for ?

Nope - I want access to those top level spells. Actually, if I wasn't playing a blood-using nation, I'll probably not bother with blood research.

- Do you have special tips on research which you think other people haven't thought about or might find very usefull ?

Not a special tip or "secret", but my thoughts on mage recruiting: Because I want my mages to be multi-purpose, I partly buy mages based on their research efficiency (ie: sages), and partly based on their random path spread, trying to get good/diverse paths. For example, Arco mystics have 3 random elemental picks. I buy lots of mystics, hoping for mystics with those picks slotted into only 1 or 2 paths. That gives me more chances of having mages to forge whatever items I need or be boostable to cast the ritual I want to do, etc. If I was playing a less magically-diverse race, I'd still try to get as much spread as I could, but then probably focus on efficiency.

[Borg]

Thanks LintMan, that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Gimme some more gems please folks

[ July 26, 2004, 07:34: Message edited by: Borg ]

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Borg:
Thanks LintMan, that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Gimme some more gems please folks

Hmmm. All right, here are some tips to help you to get started:


In MP try to build castles around your main reseach centers. If you can't and some of your mages are reseaching in the field labs, position them way back on the battlefield and script your mages to retreat, perhaps after casting few spells. Do the same for your bloodgathering mages. This way your reseachers/bloodhunters will not be destroyed by the random event, or by the cunning enemy. Keep in mind though, that if enemy is determined to wipe out your mages, he may attack all provinces abjustent to your laboratiry, in this case retreat is not a good option.

Never keep all your reseachers in one center since if it'll fall to the enemy your future reseach will be severely crippled. The best way is to allocate several reseach centers it in the back, far from potential frontlines, even if you had to lose 1 turn of reseach due to flying yor mages in the back. (they can pass flying boots to each other). Later on in MP game, protect your reseach centers with Dome spells. Also this way if the things get very hot, you can quickly shift some of your mages from reseach duty to support your troops in the field, using the closest reseach center to your front.

If your lab in the castle is about to fall to the enemy, always try to destroy it. This way not only you'll force your enemy to spend 200gp and occupy 1 mage to rebuild it, but also it'll deny enemy instant transfer of items/gems to help them in future conquest. But don't wait until the Last moment, if you've decided to burn your lab, do it at least 1 turn before the enemy smash your gates, or you'll not have time to do it since "destroying lab" order happens after the battle phase.

If you choose magic>0, as you may very well do, as I said in previous Posts, use the labs which do not have the best magic scale rating yet (those in newly conquered lands, or near strong enemy dominion, etc.) for summons/fogring/spellsearching, and those that have your maximium dominion magic spell for pure reseach.

Burning laterns are best reseach enhancing items in the game, from cost/benefit ratio. Skull mentors are also very good. Owl suck unless you are swiming in airgems and don't have anything else to do with them.


"TAB" button is your friend.


All right, hope this will help you in the begining. Good luck!

[Frosted Flake]

I should have said as Neifelheim , jotun has terrible reseachers..250 au for 7 is as bad as it gets


frosted flake

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Frosted Flake:
I should have said as Neifelheim , jotun has terrible reseachers..250 au for 7 is as bad as it gets

I'm rather partial to Seithkona, and in general I prefer the Utgard theme to Neifel. The Neifel giants may kick butt, but they are too expensive for my taste, and the Neifel theme does leave me feeling magically-impaired. If I need a mini-SC chassis, I'd much rather build it on a Bane Lord or a Firbolg playing the Utgard theme than a Neifel giant, freeing up my cash to buy magic researchers. If I played Neifel, my money would be tied up in either cost-ineffective mages or in pricey mini-SCs.

But this strays afar from the thread's topic, so I'll stop discussing the Joys of Jotun(TM) now.

[Kel]

Really? One of the first earth items I try to forge is that dwarven hammer - the sooner you get one, the more benefit you can get out of it.

Of course...it's just harder to forge. I can forge research items with 3 different paths and 2 of them require only 1 in a path. In contrast to the hammer that requires an E3 mage. Obviously not a problem with a couple of races but with most races, it's going to take you a while, plus other items (like earth boots) to get to a hammer.

In addition to that, and this is just me, I tend to only forge research items if I am intending a focused rush to a certain research level. In which case, I want the research asap.

It's not that I don't forge a hammer at earliest convenience, it's just that I only really find use for the research items (ok, not so much the lantern) in the extreme early game and hammers just aren't as convenient (given that you can make research items with 3 different paths and lower path requirements to boot).

I suppose that if you were looking at an end game rush strategy (clamming/wishing being the only semi famous one I can think of), this might not be true (I don't know how the numbers on how clams vs. research works out the best). Then again, I am only speaking for me and I have never started a game with a strategy to clam anyway

- Kel

[Lex]

i'm fairly new, but i've been reading alot of threads on this forum going back a few months, and everyone talks of gathering lots of clams to produce astral gems. But they only produce one every 4 turns, and they cost 10 water gems. After 20 turns you've only made 5 gems per clam. How can that be worth it!? How many clams are you guys making (and are water gems really so worthless that its better to make clams with them!?)

Oh, and instead of spending 20 earth gems on a dwarven hammer, why not wait a bit and use all those researchers to get the Forge of the Ancients early in the game.. that gives 50% reduction in gem use plus 1 extra in every path for forging (correct?).. (with enough researchers, you could get it well before turn 20 and still gain several levels in other paths earlier on)