So how about extending the depth of the casting queue?

[Blitz]

I think a lot of this discussion could be eliminated with the inclusion of two new commands into the combat orders screen. Both would be under the "rest of the battle" window with the now confusing "cast spells".

1) Cast Only

Pretty simple. The Mage will only cast a single particular spell. If he has no valid targets, he waits for one. This might be Orb lightning or relief, whatever floats your boat. Probably most useful for nuking mages who often waste time summoning ghost wolves.

2) Cast Either

Simple concept again, right? Pick two spells. The mage will cast one or the other, depending on the situation. A Seithkona might take Nether Darts and Healing Light... death mages on drain life and raise skeletons. You get the idea.

It's a pretty simple concept, and it solves a lot of the headaches with the order system. Nothing will replace phase-by-phase control, but that's not really feasable in a pbem game really. I think this is a pretty quick fix and should probably be implemented at some point.

[Huzurdaddi]

2) Cast Only

Pretty simple. The Mage will only cast a single particular spell. If he has no valid targets, he waits for one. This might be Orb lightning or relief, whatever floats your boat. Probably most useful for nuking mages who often waste time summoning ghost wolves.

I would be more than happy with this one feature! It would be great.

Or how about just a "cycle" for the spell list, ie: once it is done, do it again from the start.

Both would be easy, would not be a big improvement for SC's and would help national casters out ( which is IMO a good thing ).

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:

But your argument falls over if un-scripted mages are incapable of making rational spell-casting decisions.

I was not making an argument but stating an opinion.

I am also of the opinion that most of time the spellcasting AI makes fairly reasonable decisions. Its just that the unreasonable ones are so silly that they stand out as a "vocal minority". I have also seen infantry, cavalry and archers make some ridiculous targetting decisions or routing in a won battle.

So I reiterate that the current level of mage control is scaled appropriately with the total level of tactical combat control in Dom2.

Could the AI be improved? Indubitably.
Would more control make combat more interesting? Perhaps.
Is the design of the Dom2 combat engine well proportioned and consistent? I think so.

[Ironhawk]

Originally posted by Blitz:

1) Cast Only

I'm a big fan of this idea. If I'd seen this thread I would have posted my comments here instead of starting a new one. Regardless a command of this kind seems like a simple and powerful addition that the devs could make. Plus it won't be unbalancing cause you are trading off versatility for predictability in combat.

[Soapyfrog]

Well we all know the root cause of the problem, and that is overly simplistic AI.

A Mage should be able to make some basic checks to his situation... if there are nothing but mages on one side of a battle, they should not be buffing themselves repeatedly into unconciousness while the enemy waltzes up and skewers them. Mages should know when they need to be casting attack spells rather than buffs. Lastly, the AI should be aware of fatigu state, and not try to cast spells that will knock itself out.

Assuming this is too difficult a problem to fix, then there are some simple patches that can be done to minimize the impact af the AI, and these have already been mentioned in this thread (and I am sure elsewhere):

1) extend the script... I am not talking about unlimited scripts, but just to 10, which ought to cover some of the longer battles in dom2.

2) "cast offensive" and "cast defensive" in addition to the "cast spells" option. This ought to do the trick for the most part, and would not rquire extending the script.

3) Change "cast spells" to alternate between offence and defence. Once the script runs out, the mage should alternate between attack spells and buffs instead of just picking one spell it likes and going crazy with it.

All these I think would be good solutions, and hopefully not too difficult to work in.

For sure the current situation of mages buffing themselves to unconsciousness and then getting slaughtered is not what the designers had in mind!

Originally posted by Demosthenes:
I'm not saying that I don't think expanding the spellcasting interface and level of user control is not a FANTASTIC idea. I'm just saying that as it stands, I find the current level of mage control consistent with the rest of the package.

I agree in principle; I'm all in favour of minimising micromanagement and quite happy to accept that playing at the Grand Strategic level means not having much control over tactics.

But your argument falls over if un-scripted mages are incapable of making rational spell-casting decisions. Note I say rational, not optimal. Reasonable but sub-optimal behaviour is fine, but completely stupid behaviour is just a cause for player frustration.

So if Illwinter seriously improved the spellcasting AI, that would be a fine solution. But that sounds like a lot of hard work, and a good result may not even be achievable. Or they can give players more control, so that there are less choices available to the spell-casting AI. Less work for the devs and less frustration for the players.

Mark

Originally posted by Demosthenes:
I am also of the opinion that most of time the spellcasting AI makes fairly reasonable decisions. Its just that the unreasonable ones are so silly that they stand out as a "vocal minority". I have also seen infantry, cavalry and archers make some ridiculous targetting decisions or routing in a won battle.

So I reiterate that the current level of mage control is scaled appropriately with the total level of tactical combat control in Dom2.

That's not really my experience. It probably depends on which mages you're talking about of course; ones with a fairly narrow range of spells often make OK choices (my N3 druids often more-or-less default to Relief, which is super). On the other hand my Arco Mystics - thanks to 2 astral and up to three elemental paths - have an enormous range of battlefield spells, and don't they just like to try them all? All the shields first, naturally. It's not the occassional really stupid/suicidal decisions that I notice - they're always good for comedy value - it's the turn after turn of just failing to contribute anything useful to the battle.

To reiterate back; the design and the concept are great. The execution - depending as it does on quality AI - is spotty. If a player doesn't have control, and can't trust the AI, then he's doomed to frustration.

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
If a player doesn't have control, and can't trust the AI, then he's doomed to frustration.

For the most part I would agree. Doomed is a bit strong of a word. But in a competitive situation it could be the case.

I will admit to never playing Arco past Turn 10 or so; But the 3 path Machakans seem to do alright. I do hate when they cast Fire Shield/Ironskin as soon as the script runs out even though the enemy is routing and they could get another kill or three.

I stand by my initial assertion though because, this means that expanding the casting list would just be a bandaid-fix to what is really bothering most players, the AI. Not that the level of control available over mages is inadequate to the design.

I would surely love to see a "do not cast" list or a checklist system in place but that doesn't seem to be as likely as a bit of AI improvement.

[Yossar]

I would much rather have a better casting AI than a longer queue. But I don't know if that will happen until Dom 3. Being able to tell a mage to just cast one or two spells would be really nice, though. But I very rarely need a queue of different spells to go beyond six or seven. Most SCs will run out of fatigue by then anyway.

[Kel]

"*cough*...*ahem*...is this thing on ?"
"Testing..1..2..3.."
"Ok, all mages please report to tent 12 where official spellbooks will be distributed by the labmaster general."
"Per article 13a, governing Battlefield Magic & Authorized Application, any mage caught with a spellbook not authorized by his commanding Special officer or using other unauthorized magic means or paraphernalia, may face severe penalties, ranging from demotion for minor deviations to feebleminding for repeated offenses."
"You may now return to your normal research...Dismissed!".

- Kel