So far what nations look strong... and weak?

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by apoger:
The only thing mentioned that would concern me is the Illithids. So I would ease up if I anticipated conflict with R'lyeh.

Otherwise I find the Elephants/Mammoths to be essential for fast expansion. In fact, more than in Dom1.

Everyone has a different style.

I got frustraded with the Elephants/Mammoths in Dom I when every time i met a mage with 1 death he bLasted my 'Phants/'Moths with Decay.

I find them to be unreliable(weak morale, almost every indy mage can screw them) and too expensive(with the Dom II economy).

But hey, everyone has their own style...

[ November 18, 2003, 06:53: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

You can have a leader hold for a number of turns then retreat. Just (No army) Elephants geared towards the rearmost will run for the back of the army trampling; then when their morale fails, run backwards through the middle of the enemy trampling more. You rarely lose an elephant unless he gets caught by webs or vines.

If that commander is a Priestess of Arco you can have her cast sermon of courage to get another round or two out of your elephant or you have one sitting in your retreat province they can heal them and have them do another go next turn. Free attrition.

At least thats how I've tried to get my mammoths to work.

[apoger]

Just keep all your elephants in one unit and add in some hoplites. The numbers plus the hoplite morale will bolster the elephants. Throw in a priestess to cast sermon of courage (and heal afflictions if they get bad). Works like a charm.

You can also put a non routing scripted commander in the top left or bottom left corner or your position screen and have him hold/cast spells (if it's not a priest(ess) and if/when the mammoths/elephants rout they won't run him over since they run in a straight line.

Also what Alex said . High numbers of hard to kill units will make the unit have a greater moral. Then of course Sermon of Courage/Fanatism... Also nature Users have a spell called "Berserkers" which works like a charm for Elephant/Mammoth patrols.

Not to step on your toes Alex

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I don't like the mashmaster.

Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit). The MM doesn't raise skels as effectively, but at least you don't need communion anymore to use effective nature magic on the battlefield. Low-level nature spells like Touch of Madness are great on Elite Warriors or Falchioners.

IMO, the real downside of Miasma is the inability to recruit independent mages, and (to a lesser extent) the limited choices of pretenders (have to pick a cold-blooded, undead or immortal one).

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Potatoman:
I just finished a game playing R'leyh and it seemed like they were UNBELIVEABLY powerful. Illithids are vastly improved- I destroyed Mictlan's pretender titan (gold shield male Version), a priest king, 10 slaves and 13 warriors with a force of just 5 illithids and 17 hybrid troopers (the smaller ones with high morale and really low resource cost)! Each turn mictlan basicly lost 5 of its highest hp warriors until only slaves were left, which promptly routed. Possibly the ultimate counter to early game SCs.

Also, has anyone checked out some of the INSANE monsters they can summon using void gate? I just popped out a Vastness on turn 40... Good lord. It's a freaking monster! It moves anywhere it wants, is pretty much impossible to kill and causes enemy troops to die merely by being near them. AWESOME!

To be fair, there are a lot of junk monsters that your mages can summon as well (those immobile tentacle plants, for example). But the Vastness is just... WOW. It's like a demon lord, but free, and faster. To be fair, my dominion was luck 3 and the hero void searching was exp. level 9, so its not probable that you'd turn up a Vastness early in the game and cruise to a cinch victory.

Still, R'leyh seems amazing.

Yeap, awesome nation.

Abysia kicks some *** too.

[Sammual]

I got my copy yesterday and played for about 10 hours. The balance between nations is great.

I thought I was going to clean up with my heavy Bless Giants but they started to stall mid game and are now on the defensive from high level magic.

I tried Ermor (Ashen whatever) and WOW did I have a lot of points to spend. I was SHURE I was going to clean house. I had a pretender with 9 Death, 4 in everything but Fire and Air (1 in each of them). I was able to get off to a great start (And find a LOT of sites) but I started to stall when my Domain started to get countered. Now Every offense is expensive as all the nations around me have a lot of Priests and they are attacking with Priests and Seasonal Creatures (They just EAT low level undead). I am still winning but it is one hell of a fight now.

Sammual

[Joonie73]

Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

Originally posted by apoger:
There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.

That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Abysia - Slow starter, but good endgame. Blood magic ramps up nice. Don't underestimate the Warlocks.

Abysia, Blood of Humans - Weak. I don't like it. The full game doesn't seem to be enforcing scales like the demo. A change between Versions? Even so, there's nothing that gets my attention.

Atlantis - Like the defense of starting underwater. Like the Dagon. Good magics. A strong nation from start to finish.

Pythium - Good troops and good magic. Even without "Gateway V.1" Pythium still has lots of what it takes to win, and no real weakness.

Pythium, Serpent Cult - The Hydra's can be abused with the new bless effects. However the magics are weak. I don't like having all eggs in one basket. It's got power, but weakness as well. Not as good as regular Pythium. IMHO.

Man - Good fast expansion. Nice spells. Crones still rock. Stronger than Dom1. Now a real contender.

Man, Last of the Tuatha - Not bad, but I like the crones better than the Tuatha mage selection.

Ulm - Was second rate in Dom1 and may be thrid rate in Dom2. Smiths now very weak. Total lack of ability to handle super combants will make life hard on multiplayer Ulm.

C'tis - Death magic not hammered as bad as other paths. C'tis comes out way ahead compared to Dom1. More complex than some other nations, but there is potency in the Dom2 lizards.

C'tis, Desert Tombs - The theme is expensive. Takes a bit too long to ramp up the free summons. I think I could do better undead work using the Sauromancers from regular C'tis. It's a cute theme, and it might have a place in low resource scenarios... but in general I'd say it's not a top competitor.

C'tis, Miasma - I don't like the mashmaster. The disease effect isn't strong enough to matter much. I prefer the regular theme.

Arcoscephale - Good troops. Elephants rock. Good magic. Always a contender.

Caelum - Mammoths rock. Even without air elementals, the high seraphs are great. The mobility of the flyers will be stronger than in Dom1 due to the slower strategic moves of many enemy troops. Some weakness versus super combatants, however the sheer speed of Caelum may make it a terror in multiplayer.

Caelum, Return of the Raptors - I don't like losing air magic in favor of a tidbit of death magic. I don't see any real advantage in this theme over the regular caelum. The Raven Guard are nice, but not enough to convice me to drop the air magic.

Ermor, Broken Empire - This is a meaty theme! It's got good troops. It's got evil priests summoning undead. Very playable.

Ermor, Ashen Empire - I.E. DomI Ermor. This Ermor's dominion always attracts heat in multiplayer. In Dom1 Ermor could field a serious super combatant when others couldn't imagine doing the same. Now it's not so unique. Also the new bless/sacred system will encourage players to have lots of priest power floating around. I don't like Ashen Empire for multiplayer. It's great for single play, as the computer AI can't handle the deadly dominion.

Ermor, Soul Gate - So far this looks similar to Ashen Empire, just using incorporeal undead instead of skeltons/zombies. If someone can find a reason for this theme... let me know.

Marignon - All things considered I think Marignon is stronger in Dom2. Not hugely, but enough. It's good, but not great.

Marignon, Diabolical Faith - I don't like that it requires a minium Turmoil +1 and Heat +1. The access to blood magic is sweet, but the economic hardship is rough. I'll pass on this theme.

Marignon, Fires of Faith - Heat +1, yuk. Just to get the effect of a level-1 priest preaching in your provinces? Is there something that I'm missing? Doesn't work for me.

Pangaea - Weaker troops but much better magic. This looks to be pretty dedicated to the maenad theme. Could be OK. Doesn't leap out at me.

Pangaea, Carrion Woods - Pumping carrion creatures is about as effective as the meanad theme. Better quality, fewer numbers. It's alright.

Pangaea, New Era - Stronger troops, but less magic than other Pangaean themes. Very nice ground pounders. Some weakness versus super combatants. Not quite a top contender, but solid.

Vanheim - Loss of lesser air elementals hurt Vanhiem more than others air Users. Valks fly. It's got air and earth magic. Not sure if the new sacred/bless system helped the Van. All said and done, Vanheim is good, but not great. Unless I'm missing something.

Vanheim, Helheim - A bit of death magic? Nah. Does nothing for me.

Vanhiem, Midgard - Level 2 astral mage. Air 2 mage with 2 random picks (for 160 gold). Yummy! I like this theme. No valks though. I think this is the strongest Vanheim theme.

Jotunheim, Iron Woods - Effectively this is the "goblin" theme. Bleh. Nothing to see here.

Jotunheim, Neifelheim - Big freaky giants! A potential super combatant that I can buy for gold. Nice! This theme has some potential.

Jotunheim, Utgard - Siethkona. Real death magic. Some astral also. Probably the most well rounded Jotunhiem theme. This is the theme I would play right now. Strong.

R'lyeh - Much more "Cthulhu" flavor than Dom1. Protected water start. Looks like the mind bLasts are dangerous this time around. I need more practice with this new theme. It's got potential.

Mictlan - Free slaves. They're garbage, but hey, it's *free* garbage. Blood magic, nice. Good, but expensive access to magic paths. The eagle warriors interest me. I need to do some work with Mictlan before real judgement... but right now I like what I see. It's a complex nation. If you are new to the game, move along.

T'ien Ch'i - I like the diverse military. Magic is a bit weak, but has interesting summons. It's at least good. Possibly more...

T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn - Requires turmoil +1. Has weaker military but stronger magics than regular theme. Not as interesting, to me. The forced turmoil is too harsh.

T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings - Better military... but turmoil +2. Weak economics self-defeats the improved military. No interest from me.

Machaka - Diverse troops. Outstanding assassins. The magic is a bit weak, but adequate. Good, but not great. Lot's of fun though. Can't beat giant spiders for sheer smile factor.


That's my preliminary thoughts. More details as I discover them.

[apoger]

>I don't like the mashmaster

>>Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit).


You hit the nail on the head. I prefer that my primary national mage be top notch in one skill rather than OK in a few.

[Gandalf Parker]

Note what he said as far as

There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.
That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Keep in mind that this is a deep and balanced game. If there was an obviously strongest nation then it would not be a well-done game.

A) a nation is strong if it matches the players style. If you want to play like a tank-commander then take ulm. If you tend to prefer research and magic then try Arcosphale. If you like air-dropped invasions try Man. If you like CIA secret armys try Pangaea.

B) a nation is weak if its strong points are ones you dont really use.

C) it can be a rude awakening in your first few multiplayer games to discover that your "weak" nations are someone elses "strongest" nations.

In Dom1 we went thru a LONG and enjoyable process of declaring certain nations to be too strong or unbalanced, then discovering that the balance was already there but in another nation we hadnt played seriously yet. I think the Devs had a great time waiting and watching for us to discover these.

We started saying "if you THINK its too strong then search for the response" and also that "if you think its weak and worthless then get creative in how it might be used".
EVENTUALLY we did find some things that we just couldnt balance out and tweaks showed up in patches for those. But it was a long way off from where we thought we had found such things. Personally I think its abit early to judge.

Some specialize in testing the "too strong" stuff. I like to concentrate on finding something interesting about the "who would ever choose this" stuff.

But that was a great list. One persons list (dont like Pangaeas default huh? hee hee hee). But everyones list will be different. Thats the great thing about this game.

[ November 18, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]