c'tis themes

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Miasma seems actually very interesting with a strong dominion. Now the interesting question is: does the diseasing effect also apply to your non-cold blooded pretender?

I wondered this myself, but I've only used undead or CBed pretenders... Its annoying as well that indie priests and mages are a bit more of a risk, though there must be ways to protect them from disease.

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I remember that in Doms 1 poison resisance offered protection against some forms of disease. Something else to check.

I'm not sure about this, but I think with seasons the effects of the extra heat scale arn't as bad as they would be otherwise, though it depends on how much the seasons are effecting the temperature scales.

I don't doubt it will be actually better in most cases. Imagine a situation in which you start surrounded by Caelum, Jotunheim and Vanheim...

Also miasma decreases taxes outside of your boarders by a decent amount (if I remember correctly) where you have domain, and the fact that you will take heat 2 and death 2

Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.

means that you will further complicate enemies taxes where you can get a domain advantage, if you are able to do it right you will really create problems for your neighbors, which of course will create problems for you in MP... I dunno, it will be interesting to see how it works in practicality.

I doubt that will be a problem for your neighbours. Unless they're tempted to grab your own provinces, ofc. It's not that hard to keep an adverse dominion at bay on a peaceful border.

Also you can seemingly use sloth at a high level since you don't have alot of resource hungry units (if you go with serpents and summons) so you can further crud up border provinces... seems Miasma is could be very effective for domain pushing since it adds more negatives to your neighbors.

You could use sloth, I wouldn't myself. The sacred serpents are useful only for their standard effect, they don't warrant uberbless magic. With Miasma, I'd prefer to invest in good scales, and a hard-to-storm castle before anything else.

[licker]

Hmm, question on who is immune to disease...

I have some wights, and they are diseased...

Is there some kind of list of immune units? I was assuming (well hoping I guess) that all undead would be immune, but maybe they need lifeless to be immune, none of my lifeless undead have contracted disease (so far...).

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Also miasma decreases taxes outside of your boarders by a decent amount (if I remember correctly) where you have domain, and the fact that you will take heat 2 and death 2
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Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.
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Isn't that what I said?

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means that you will further complicate enemies taxes where you can get a domain advantage, if you are able to do it right you will really create problems for your neighbors, which of course will create problems for you in MP... I dunno, it will be interesting to see how it works in practicality.
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I doubt that will be a problem for your neighbours. Unless they're tempted to grab your own provinces, ofc. It's not that hard to keep an adverse dominion at bay on a peaceful border.
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True the tax bit is probably not going to be an issue, but if you can spread your dominion into the border provs they will have a hard time garisoning them. On a peaceful border they may not care, but that only makes it easier for the land grabbing backstab

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:

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heat 2 and death 2
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Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.
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Isn't that what I said?

Didn't you say "heat 2 AND death 2". I mean, death +2 isn't a requirement for Miasma.

[licker]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by licker:

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heat 2 and death 2
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Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.
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Isn't that what I said?

Didn't you say "heat 2 AND death 2". I mean, death +2 isn't a requirement for Miasma.

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Ok, yes death is not required for Miasma, I think I had said elsewhere that you might as well take it though, since it doesn't hurt Miasma that much, and Miasma should benefit from more negative scales if you want to try to push domain on your neighbors. If you don't want to push domain, I don't think Miasma is being used to its fullest.

Anyway, some more testing on Miasma Last night (at least until my wife told me turn off the computer ) and I noticed some bugs so I'll point them out.

The Naga pretender (who is a good fit for Miasma) says its 20 points per new path, but on the magic selection screen it says 30, and it charges you 30. The Golden Naga (who is identical except for 2 fire rather than 2 nature) also says 20 and charges 20.

As I mentioned earlier undead do not seem to be immune to disease, though it says in the pop up for undead that they are. I had ghosts and wights both get diseased, though there seemed to be no ill effects from it (i.e. they weren't losing HP and they weren't getting new afflictions).

Anyway, I've been having fun with Miasma, though with the turn limit in the demo it's hard to tell how much on an effect its having on the AI armies. Well that and I've not been able to get enough of an income setup to put up temples to boost domain much while trying to keep recruiting enough mages to fuel research and summons.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Miasma seems actually very interesting with a strong dominion. Now the interesting question is: does the diseasing effect also apply to your non-cold blooded pretender?

OK, tested, with a 100% poison resistant Scorpion King. This didn't prevent him to get diseased as soon as turn #2.

Fastest testbed I ever had.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
OK, tested, with a 100% poison resistant Scorpion King. This didn't prevent him to get diseased as soon as turn #2.

Fastest testbed I ever had.

Did he continue to lose HP etc., or was it the same thing as with undead getting the disease?

[ November 07, 2003, 00:45: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Humer]

Originally posted by licker:

As I mentioned earlier undead do not seem to be immune to disease, though it says in the pop up for undead that they are. I had ghosts and wights both get diseased, though there seemed to be no ill effects from it (i.e. they weren't losing HP and they weren't getting new afflictions).

This seems to be legacy from Dom 1. Undeads DO get diseased, it just doesn't do anything to them (no hp loss, no additional afflictions...).

I think Miasma-pretender, cold-blooded or not, should NOT get diseased. After all, it's their dominion fer chris' sake! I actually haven't tested so extensively to know for sure...

- Humer

[licker]

Continuing this Miasma discussion I'm wondering what some vets think of a set up like this...

Order +3 Sloth +3 Heat +2 Growth 0 Misfortune +3 Magic +1

Resoning being that you need many resources for Miasma if you use serpents. You'll have enough to field enough Swamp Gaurds and Poison Slingers anyway. You can still use the LI as screeners and their javalin is nice en masse. You do benefit from a decent income though, and with order +3 you might as well take misfortune +3. I didn't see any reason to go for growth or death, though for more points death +1 is doable I think. Magic +1 is to help your Shamen research. I'm thinking you could also go to Heat +3 as the income loss isn't that bad and supply shouldn't be an issue with all the marshmasters and undead you will probably field.

That nets 160 extra points, less 50 for miasma is 110... I think the Dark Citadel is a good choice as it's hard to seige and cheap, though it is expensive and takes 4 turns.

As to the pretender... well you have some choices, even if you limit yourself to undead, nagas, and the lizard king (or whatever he calls himself...) Domain is important though, so taking a pretender with a higher domain is cost effective, I'd not use less than 6 and probably try for 7. Then it's about magic. I'm having a difficult time deciding what good bless effects are for the Serpets. Nature is good at some level for at least the 'zerking, though with 22hp regeneration isn't all that great (though it could be for your pretender, the Naga would use it well). Death 9 is also somewhat lacking since the serpents don't benefit from the life after death, though the fear aura could be useful (but maybe you don't need 9 in death to get some benefit from that). Earth seems popular, but fatigue isn't an issue and it's hard to get earth 9 and anything else since none of the miasma immune pretenders start with earth. Also the serpents have a low protection to begin with, adding 4 to a low number isn't as useful as adding 4 to a high number, unless you can couple in regeneration, which is really costly.

Taking high astral might be interesting though...

The research track comes next... I'd imagine that conjuration should be a priority so you can get your undead army churning, and construction is always useful. If you luck into some early blood marshmasters you could even try to set up some blood (or if you take a blood pretender). Otherwise I don't know, what schools offer the best auxilary spells for nature and death? Oh you can go for quickness too since all the MMs have water...

Heh, that's getting a bit long... oh well, if you read it give me some comments or your thoughts/experiences

[Pocus]

I dont know how you calculate, but how you are so low (160 DP) ?

I assembled a quick Miasma race, with your ideas in mind, so that the race is still in the trend of what you would like:

Super Scary Miasma Defending Lizards theme :

Prince of Death, Death 9
dominions 8
Hill Fortress

order+3, productivity-3, Heat+2, growth+3, luck-3, magic+3

PoD & death 9, or holy units & death 9 : instill fear into your enemies

hill fortress is an hell to assault (big defence to bring down, then narrow passage & 32 arrows when you assault), coupled with miasma disease, and some city guards should be a good deterrent...

dominions 8 to push Miasma

growth 3 & magic 3 because I had too much design points . Growth would give you long term power thanks to your population, and +6% income. Magic +3 will make you shamen astonishing researcher, for a low upkeep.

Thats just a quick race, perhaps you can abandon death 9 (but the PoD start at 3, so this is cheap, far less costly that astral or even nature). Also growth 3 is not that needed, you can switch to prod 0.

Dont take the dark citadel anyway, too costly, and no arrows when assaulted.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
Continuing this Miasma discussion I'm wondering what some vets think of a set up like this...

My personal fave of the moment looks like this:

C'tis/Miasma
Order, Prod, Growth, Misfortune +3
Heat +2
Magic 0
Dominion 7

Mountain Citadel (low admin but impressive defense) or Dark Citadel (better admin but lacks towers) or Fortified City (good for Swamp Guards, but needs to tip one scale down).

PoD Earth 4/Death 4 (earth mainly for Firbolg castles and hammers, and Wind Ride immunity. Also self-protection ofc).

Empoisoner as prophet. Swamp Guards used mainly for conquest. Lizard Warriors mainly for inner defense (because of their higher map speed = can react faster when invaded).

I'm having a difficult time deciding what good bless effects are for the Serpets.

Not a concern for me. I use at most 3/army for their standard effect, having them escort commanders who stay behind troops.

The research track comes next... I'd imagine that conjuration should be a priority so you can get your undead army churning, and construction is always useful.

Enchantment first: Raise undead, Behemoths. Then Alteration: ethereal Behemoths. These are my first targets.

If you luck into some early blood marshmasters you could even try to set up some blood

I think C'tis will be busy enough researching high Conjuration, Enchantment, Alteration and Thaumaturgy (and Construction, like everybody else) to bother with blood magic for a while. Although that might not be true on site-poor maps, where blood is even more important.