Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Similarly, quickness - 50% extra attacks by 10 Wardens would probably be similarly useful to 50% extra attacks by 35 flags, because their attacks are so much better. Reinvogoration would be more valuable to wardens than flags. Regeneration would be WAY more useful to wardens than flags... and flaming weapons would probably be more useful to flags because it is multiplied out like strength.


+50% Quickness would net 10 Wardens an extra 5 attacks. It would get 35 flags another 35 attacks! While the warden attacks are stronger, it gets overwhelmed by the sheer volume of flag attacks. Easily.

Even for the stuff like regeneration, yes the flags don't get the benefit of the double attack, but they still get regen on 3.5X as many troops. In a one on one comparison a warden gets more regen than a flag. When you account for 1 warden versus 3.5 flags, the situation is much murkier.

For the bonuses that don't involve an attack the flags only get 3.5X as much bonus as opposed to 7X. I'm still willing to bet that flags are the only troop that will be able to make the new blessing system worthwhile.

Regeneration is much more powerful on armored troops like wardens. While flaggelants can easily be killed by a single blow this is rare for wardens so the chance that regen will have an impact on a warden is much higher. If you take the extreme case of the new Niefel giants this is even more pronounced.

Blessings might not be very powerful in the long run, but since early expansion is very important in most games powerful blessings will have an effect beyond just the blessing effect in itself, since it might allow for quicker expansion etc.

[Saber Cherry]

The problem is that a flagellant will often die with a single hit, so regeneration does him no good... while heavy units often survive with minimal damage, which is then regenerated. Unarmored units also don't really benefit from protection, since they usually die in one hit anyway... and they don't benefit at all from reinvigoration, since they have low encumbrance (and die in a prolonged fight).

Extra attacks are useful for Wardens, because they do much more damage and have a much higher attack rating. So, against very heavy (18 prot Ulm) infantry, 10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing. Double-strike doesn't help if neither hit does any damage... and 3 protection doesn't help when you're impaled on a pike.

-Cherry

Edit: JO posted about the same thing at about the same time.

[ October 27, 2003, 01:18: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Wick]

"I'm still willing to bet that flags are the only troop that will be able to make the new blessing system worthwhile."

Flags are also the big losers -- strength and attack played right to their strength but several of the new bonuses don't.

I see the new blessing system as simiar to the old one, perhaps slighty weaker, but with more variety and adding a bias for pretender magic. I'm not sure what standard "worthwhile" you're using.
Worthwhile as in sacred troops will be less used then before? As in level 9 magic is just too expensive? As in making a magic path come out even is too expensive?

[apoger]

>10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing.

Can't compare same blessings, you have to compare best.

35 flags with +3 str, +3 att, def +3 (extra def would make quite an impact versus the wardens above), and 50% quickness would absolutely crush the wardens from the above example. [using the same amount of bless effect]

It's possible that flaming weapons would be even better than quickness, but I'm not quite sure what the flame effect entails yet.

Unless you are going to use sacred troops with missile attacks, the flags are going to come out ahead every time.

[apoger]

>I see the new blessing system as simiar to the old one, perhaps slighty weaker, but with more variety and adding a bias for pretender magic.

My fear is that it will be more than slightly weaker.

What about players who do not invest heavily in pretender magic? That renders any sacred troops much less useful. In Dom I, all nations had some ability to field serious sacred troops. In Dom II players will find their sacred troops to be junky unless they set up their nation specifically to take advantage of them. I'm not sure I like that new paradigm.


>I'm not sure what standard "worthwhile" you're using.

Competitive with other uses of nation points.


>Worthwhile as in sacred troops will be less used then before?

In multiplayer, it's almost certain that we will see less serious use of sacred troops.

[unless of course my suspisions are totally wrong]


>As in level 9 magic is just too expensive?

It generally is.


>As in making a magic path come out even is too expensive?

I have no idea what this means.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:
>10 Wardens with +3 protection, +3 strength, +3 reinvigoration, and regeneration would probably do much better than 35 flags with the same blessing.

Can't compare same blessings, you have to compare best.

35 flags with +3 str, +3 att, def +3 (extra def would make quite an impact versus the wardens above), and 50% quickness would absolutely crush the wardens from the above example. [using the same amount of bless effect]

It's possible that flaming weapons would be even better than quickness, but I'm not quite sure what the flame effect entails yet.

Unless you are going to use sacred troops with missile attacks, the flags are going to come out ahead every time.

A trifle too dogmatic I fear, Mr. Poger. Much as I respect your veteran status I disagree with your conclusions in this instance.

Comparing best to best I would say that you could craft a group of 10 wardens that could destroy a group of 35 flagellants, simply by playing to the warden's strengths. If there was a specific 'counter' bless effect for every bless effect this wouldn't be possible. What I mean is that obviously if you raise the wardens' defense and the flags' attack, then it'll all balance out. However, there is no opposite to effects like reinvigoration, regeneration, flaming weapons, twist fate, etc. Accordingly it should be possible to craft a blessing effect which would play to the wardens' strengths.

The strengths of the warden (by comparison with flagellants) are high HP (13 vs. 9), high PROT (16 vs. 0), and higher attack and defense. Typically a flagellant will hit about 46% of the time (9 ATT vs. 10 DEF), do some damage 38% of the time (14 vs. 16 PROT), more than likely a very small amount. Typically a warden will hit a flag 89% of the time, and do damage pretty much every time they hit (0 PROT vs. 22) and mostly enough to kill the flag. suppose each is blessed with magic 9 in the most optimal path. For wardens I suggest nature: berserk +3 and regeneration (& poison resistance, but that doesn't relate here). For flags suppose water, for even more attacks, or blood (except I'm not sure what is meant by 'death curse') So let's suppose water.

The wardens will regenerate HP, meaning that if one is not killed in a single round he will likely bounce back and do more damage. In addition, getting wounded will give him +3 str, prot, and att, and -3 def. The defense reduction isn't a big deal because he's getting hit quite a lot anyway (7 attacks to his 1), so his defense is not where his strength is anyway. +3 str also isn't a big deal because he likely kills a flag with each attack anyway. same with +3 att. +3 prot will reduce the number of times the warden gets damaged to about 20% (14 vs. 19 PROT), and accordingly reduce the amount of damage he takes.

The flags get def +4, and quickness (50%), which is an extra attack every other round I believe. The defense boost will help a little, but the chance for them getting hit will still be 74%, so they'll get hit alot. since the other stats are unchanged they'll also get killed alot.

Now compare in a single round: warden with 1 attack, flags with an average of 10 attacks (3.5*2 + half again). Flags hit 7 times (68%), 20% of those cause damage; that's about 1.4, and those attacks will most likely just do a point or two of damage. 1 flag dead. Next round: warden regenerates up to full, same deal, 1 flag dead. It's just possible that every so often a flag will get incredibly lucky and roll several sixes - extreme damage. So it's possible that they might kill a warden or two if they got lucky. Of course the wardens are berserk so won't rout. More than likely the flags won't be able to do serious enough damage to the wardens to win, and it should only take 4 rounds for all the flags to be dead.

All that to say: I think you're wrong that flagellants would take down wardens if each were optimally blessed. Thus maybe sacred troops other than flagellants will be useful.

p.s. sorry about the length of the post.

[apoger]

What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:
What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

The only bonus that I am aware of is that each attack made against a single target lowers that target's defense score by 1. This is indeed a potent effect when you are facing 10 attacks to each 1 of your own, but the wardens in the scenario I sketched out are not relying primarily on defense, but on protection. The only thing I know that affects protection is fatigue, but if the battle only takes 4 rounds (and only 15 flags left after the first 2), this ought not to change things much. Suppose flags hit 10/10 instead of 7/10 times (due to lowering defense) - still only 2 of those are likely to pierce the armour of the warden, and them do a few points of damage each - very unlikely 13 points combined (which is how many HP the wardens have).

But it is not the same in this scenario as in Dom I, due to the factor of regeneration. In Dom I during the second round of combat the wardens would be low on hitpoints, and by the third round several, perhaps many, would have fallen. The factor of regeneration changes all this, because it allows the regenerating unit to recoup lost hitpoints during the battle. Thus the wardens do not die (as they would in Dom I) to an accumulation of low damage attacks - rather they regenerate the damage and this is what makes the key difference.

I also will test out this theory when the game comes out - but I bet you a large pizza with anchovies that I'm right

[ October 27, 2003, 04:07: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by apoger:
What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

Well, obviously some testing would be nice. But when you compare to the Dom I situation, I think you are ignoring the importance of regeneration and extra protection that the wardens are getting. How often (in the Dom I tests) do the wardens die from one hit, vs. dying from multiple hits? It would be much rarer to die from multiple hits if you have extra protection and regeneration - the one lucky fistful of sixes is about the only way.

AFAIK, the multiple attacker bonus only affects defense, which isn't that much of an issue in this example anyway. The flags would be better off with strength, I think. Fatigue might also be an issue for the wardens, but I would expect a warden vs. flag match to be decided before fatigue could have much effect (someone will be dead or routed by turn 5).


In any case, the example has a serious flaw: it assumes that 3.5 flags actually get to attack each warden. Wardens are size 2 or 3 (I forget), so 3 or 2 fill one space. Flags are size 2, so 3 fill one space. At most 1.5 flags per warden will actually be attacking at a time - the rest will be stuck in the back.

Small squads will reduce this effect somewhat in later rounds as the flags run around the sides, but by later rounds there won't be as many flags anyway.


Some more points that aren't being considered: although Marignon has level 4 priests, Man does not. They may have trouble blessing substantial Groups of wardens (assuming that they can field them in the first place). On the other hand, wardens have good protection and resist missiles pretty well (especially with regen and berserking). Flags have lousy protection and can get mauled by slingers, let alone bows. Hmm, can Man field bows?

In fact, firing longbows into melee where your nature-9 blessed wardens are fighting would be really effective - if you do hit a warden by accident, you will probably (a) not kill him, and (b) drive him berserk. And (c) he will regenerate. And that's not even counting the effect on your enemies...

It may be difficult to test bless situations in Dom II - unless the battle sim has been significantly improved, you probably won't be able to edit god magic for each side before running the sim. So you'll get the generic bless.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
In any case, the example has a serious flaw: it assumes that 3.5 flags actually get to attack each warden. Wardens are size 2 or 3 (I forget), so 3 or 2 fill one space. Flags are size 2, so 3 fill one space. At most 1.5 flags per warden will actually be attacking at a time - the rest will be stuck in the back.

I was about to disagree and then I realised that I was the one who was getting confused - You're absolutely right.

BTW you're probably right that flags would do better with blood, for the strength boost. The only thing that made me not want to use that was not knowing what the 'death curse' you get at lvl 9 is. Even in that case regeneration would make probably a big difference.

BTW2 apparently there is no battle sim in Dom II - much to my dismay I might add.

*edit - it was your stats, by the way, from the usenet post, that I was basing my calculations upon. A most helpful piece of research - thank you.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:23: Message edited by: st.patrik ]