OT: Matrix

[Captain Kwok]

There were a few highlights in the series, but no where near as rewarding as the Lord of the Rings.

[General Woundwort]

Woundwort's First Theorem of Filmmaking - If you have a great (or just good) standalone film, making a trilogy or series out of it will ruin it.

Proofs of theorem -
Jaws
the Matrix
Superman (caveat - in this case, II was better than I - but the rest...)

[Timstone]

And what about the Alien serie? Only Part 4 was bad, but the rest was absolutely great.
Don't think that when you have more than one part that the other parts will be worse than the first one. Everyone has his/her own thoughts about the next movie after the first, so it always is a bit different than that person wanted to see it. You can't please everyone. It really annoys me that a lot of people forget this and condemn a follow-up movie to a degrading status.

[General Woundwort]

To slightly modify the theorem - trying to recapitulate the same film 2-3 times over will ruin it.

Aliens I and II were two different genre movies using the same aliens (I - horror/slasher; II - action/shoot-em-up) so both could stand on their own merits. III tried to go back to the original genre and just didn't work IMHO.

Aliens IV... was the third-worst movie I have ever seen. (Just in case you're wondering - Highlander II was the second-worst, Eraserhead was the worst).

Another case in point - the Bond series. I used to love Bond films as a kid. Now, I couldn't care less. How many times can you do "Bond uses neat gadgets to beat the bad guy, steal his girlfriend, and save the world" before it starts to get - well - blase?

Another proof of the theorem - Blair Witch Project.

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
I found the first movie to be very interesting and revolutionary, but after seeing it once or twice I lost interest in it. The second movie was a logical continuation of the first as the third was of the second.

I do not buy the ending of the trilage at all though. We all know that he is inside of a matrix that is inside of a matrix and so on and so on. How else could he see everything in the "real world" as code?

He coudn't see everything in the 'real world' as code. He could only see elements of the matrix in the outside world (like Smith-possesed and the AIs/squids/constructs, all else was darkness).

Overall I loved the series. It showed the rise and fall of a messiah in an apocalyptic world, whose very coming was designed as a tool to further the apocalypse itself. Pretty slick.

Everything was internally consistent and well played out, unlike other flicks that rely on some kind of disappointing deus-ex mechanisim when it gets to the crunch (ie. Superman reversing time by flying aroung the planet, just about any episode of Trek... ). It's rare enough to find a series that shows the fallout after the 'big event' (where most such movies stop) but the Matrix went one set further, it actually did it well.

[AMF]

Eraserhead and Pink Flamingos are the only movies I have seen where I needed to take a shower and go outside in the sun afterwards. I felt "dirtied" by them. I do think eraserhead was well made, but just disturbing. Pink flamingos was just gross (weel, the Last scene where Divine eats doggie poo at least...)

But, I have to disagree about Alien III. I actually thought it was the best one of the series.

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
To slightly modify the theorem - trying to recapitulate the same film 2-3 times over will ruin it.

Aliens I and II were two different genre movies using the same aliens (I - horror/slasher; II - action/shoot-em-up) so both could stand on their own merits. III tried to go back to the original genre and just didn't work IMHO.

Aliens IV... was the third-worst movie I have ever seen. (Just in case you're wondering - Highlander II was the second-worst, Eraserhead was the worst).

Another case in point - the Bond series. I used to love Bond films as a kid. Now, I couldn't care less. How many times can you do "Bond uses neat gadgets to beat the bad guy, steal his girlfriend, and save the world" before it starts to get - well - blase?

Another proof of the theorem - Blair Witch Project.

[ March 24, 2004, 12:17: Message edited by: alarikf ]

[gregebowman]

Let me add my 2 cents here:

Of the 4 Alien movies, 3 was definitely the worst. As mentioned below, they tried to do the first movie again, and it didn't work. If you had read the history of the script, it would have been more like 2, but then the Berlin Wall fell, and no one thought people would be interested in the original script. I know Joss Wheeden (?) got involved in rewriting the script. They should have left it alone.

As far as the Last two Matrix movies, they were good, but too long and not very clear (IMO). I've only seen them once apiece. I'll need to watch the dvd to get a better understanding as Neo is talking to the Architect of the history of the other Ones. And on first viewing on 3, I thought Neo had survived, but after talking to a few people, they convinced me that he had died. I'll have to watch it again when the dvd comes out.

As far as the Superman movies, I think that I and II are great. And the rest stink. I can't even watch 4 anymore. It's so terrible. I wish Kevin Smith's script for the proposed new movie would have survived. I'd trust his storytelling more than anyone else, but when they hired Tim Burton to direct it, he threw out that script. And eventually he and Nicholas Cage got thrown out of the project. Still don't know if they're going to make a fifth movie. At least they're going for a fifth Batman movie. Hope it's good.

As far as my least favorite movies, well, I already mentioned Superman 4, and it seems General Woundwort and I both hate Highlander 2. Another movie I don't ever watch is Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Once was too much for that movie. Don't remember ever seeing Eraserhead, so I'll reserve judgement on that movie until I see it.

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
As far as my least favorite movies, well, I already mentioned Superman 4, and it seems General Woundwort and I both hate Highlander 2. Another movie I don't ever watch is Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Once was too much for that movie. Don't remember ever seeing Eraserhead, so I'll reserve judgement on that movie until I see it.

Highlander II was the only movie I have walked out of and demanded my money back for. (I came pretty darn close with Aliens IV, however...)

As for AOTKT, you're being too harsh. "Tomatoes" was supposed to be a bad movie - it's like "Plan 9", you know from square one what you're going to get (campy nonsense), and that's its entertainment value. Mind you, I was not so entertained by AOTKT that I'd see it again - but I'd hardly call it so bad as to be worth avoiding.

Unlike Eraserhead. Avoid it at ALL COSTS. Trust me, those are 90 minutes of my life I'd give my left arm to have back...

EDIT -

At least they're going for a fifth Batman movie. Hope it's good.

Given the track record of the ones after the first? Good luck. The Batman sequels won in the Worst Director Category in the Grudge-Match Oscars...

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/...director.shtml

[ March 25, 2004, 21:06: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by General Woundwort:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregebowman:
As far as my least favorite movies, well, I already mentioned Superman 4, and it seems General Woundwort and I both hate Highlander 2. Another movie I don't ever watch is Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Once was too much for that movie. Don't remember ever seeing Eraserhead, so I'll reserve judgement on that movie until I see it.

Highlander II was the only movie I have walked out of and demanded my money back for. (I came pretty darn close with Aliens IV, however...)

As for AOTKT, you're being too harsh. "Tomatoes" was supposed to be a bad movie - it's like "Plan 9", you know from square one what you're going to get (campy nonsense), and that's its entertainment value. Mind you, I was not so entertained by AOTKT that I'd see it again - but I'd hardly call it so bad as to be worth avoiding.

Unlike Eraserhead. Avoid it at ALL COSTS. Trust me, those are 90 minutes of my life I'd give my left arm to have back...

---

Well, there were a couple of good scenes from AOTKT that I still get a chukle from (especially the guy in the tomatoe suit asking for ketchup). I happened to catch it on late night tv one time, so maybe some stuff got edited out. Maybe I'll watch it again if it ever comes on, but I don't think I'll be buying the dvd that came out recently.

As far as Highlander, maybe you can answer my question about the 4th movie. I know they were trying to bridge the movies and the series, but the end result has left me confused. How can Duncan be The One, when Connor was already The One some 15 years before? Which also made no sense for the 3rd movie, as how could Connor get his powers when there were 3 frozen immortals still waiting to be killed? They should have let the original creator come back to write the sequels. At least I think we would have some continuity then.

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
As far as Highlander, maybe you can answer my question about the 4th movie. I know they were trying to bridge the movies and the series, but the end result has left me confused. How can Duncan be The One, when Connor was already The One some 15 years before? Which also made no sense for the 3rd movie, as how could Connor get his powers when there were 3 frozen immortals still waiting to be killed? They should have let the original creator come back to write the sequels. At least I think we would have some continuity then.

Got me. I never saw III or IV. HII (very) effectively killed my interest in the series.