Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Argitoth]

Daynarr said:
I think 1N 1F and a disease is a great price for an item that generates only 1 fire gem.
Note that one commander can carry only 1 of gem generators now (of the same type).

really?... I think the whole concept of these gem generating items have been totally screwed up with the way they are. Gem generating was meant as a way to generate a few gems before a battle, not extra gem income.

I think we should focus on making gem generating items for that strategy. I think it shold cost more gems but wearing it gives you a non-stackable bonus (because only one can be worn per commander) or both should give a non-stackable negative effect.

[Wauthan]

While it's a silly solution I put all gem generating items in the unique Category. It's not a good fix but it seemed to work fairly well in the Last MP session.

The only trouble was that noone got to keep the items for very long, since people kept pushing for control of them.

[Argitoth]

so you're saying only 1 clam and 1 fever fetish was allowed in the game and people kept losing it?

I'd like to know how people knew what to kill to take it.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Argitoth said:
really?... I think the whole concept of these gem generating items have been totally screwed up with the way they are. Gem generating was meant as a way to generate a few gems before a battle, not extra gem income.

Were they? Are you sure that that was what they were meant to be? I have always seen them as primarily a way to generate extra gem income for certain nations, specifically Atlantis, Caelum, and Jotunheim.

I mean, take a look at which nations can actually make clams fairly painlessly (i.e. have 2W)... The nations that have easiest access to Clams are Atlantis (strong capital-only astral), Caelum (non-astral), Jotunheim (non-astral), T'ien Ch'i (weak capital-only astral), and Pytium (strong astral), while astral nations like Arcoscephale (strong astral), Ermor (default, strong astral), Marignon (strong astral), and C'this (weak astral) have trouble making them.

The evidence suggests that the primary use is not providing astral nations with a few astral gems before battle, since the main beneficiaries of Clams are non-astral nations that cannot use the gems in battle and weak astral nations. Only Pythium of the strong astral nations that are likely to field astral mages on the battlefield get to make their own clams easily.

[Endoperez]

To make FEW clams one doesn't need many W2 mages. There are some Astral spells that are nice and require gem, but until the late game they mainly consist of Astral Healing and Antimagic, and maybe Power of the Spheres. And you don't need many mages casting those... Well, Arcos and Pythium could use PotS as their mages have many kinds of magic, but making clams is easy for both.

I also think that for the Astral nations you gave Arcos certainly is able to easily make clams, or atleast has a good change for it. Even without Constr.6 they will probably have W2 mage without anything better to do quite soon. Mystics are great!

This leaves Ermor and Marignon as strong astral nations without clams. The strong astral nations *with* ability to do clams are Pythium, Arcos and Atlantis. The weak/non astral nations that can do clams are Caelum, Jotunheim and Tien Chi. 3 Astral nations that can do clams (easily) and three non-astral nations that can do them easily doesn't seem to be in favour of the non-astral ones.

Also, I think that clams were just added as a cool item without thinking how, exactly, they would be useful, and for whom. Maybe one of the developers was annoyed with micromanaging gems for his mages.

[Vynd]

Argitoth said:

really?... I think the whole concept of these gem generating items have been totally screwed up with the way they are. Gem generating was meant as a way to generate a few gems before a battle, not extra gem income.

I can sort of see the argument that Clams and Bloodstones "ought" to be primarily for the purpose of giving commanders on the move a steady supply of gems. But Fever Fetishes? C'mon man, they give your commanders Disease! If Fever Fetishes were changed so that they were somehow only useful for battlefield magic, who would use them? For that matter, who would invest in Bloodstones, or even in Clams, which I'd say are the cheapest of all gem producing items, if their purpose was for giving mages gems to use in battlefield magic?

[Cainehill]

It's been posted that Clams, in particular, were a strong component of Atlantis' design (as in, doing away with / tweaking clams would screw Atlantis, so it wasn't going to happen.) That rather conflicts with the "clams and fetishes were made so commanders could have a few gems with them" theory.

In particular since it's pretty easy to take gems (and not clams/fetishes) with armies - either on the commander, or on scouts.

Finally, it seems strange (given that most nations' mages aren't undead and would die from the diseases) to suggest that fever fetishes were meant to reduce micromanagement or allow the commanders to have a few gems with them, since the mage would _DIE_ from disease within a very short period of time.

I suspect the people advancing this theory of what the designers had intended are instead merely pushing their own theory of how the gems should be used.

[Soapyfrog]

Why does Atlantis need clams so? They can find astral sites as well or even better than many other nations...

[Truper]

Vynd said:
For that matter, who would invest in Bloodstones, or even in Clams, which I'd say are the cheapest of all gem producing items, if their purpose was for giving mages gems to use in battlefield magic?

I would The gem-producing items can serve both puposes. I find it very useful to equip Astral mages who are out conquering with a Clam - it sure beats the micro-management of trying to get Pearls to them in any other way. And just about the only reason I ever build Bloodstones is to provide a steady supply of Earth gems for an Earth caster. After all, mages who can forge them are rather rare, unless you want to count special circumstances like Forge of the Ancients

[Zen]

Alright. There will be an update of the Conceptual Balance Series this weekend. If you have any feedback before I update it, I'd appreciate it. (In order to better serve those who don't like the rash of updates.)

The Spellmod will be adjusted due to a few issues. Most specifically with Fire Elementals, Wards, Angels.