MBT's

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

1. Maybe India won't upgrade those T-72 tanks after all as noted here last week.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...63&c=FEA&s=SPE

2. This will be posted on the APC thread as well. Covered this once before, but K2 backed up to 2013, which I believe was addressed. Will check.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...65&c=FEA&s=SPE

3. Again as above for posting. Not every one's interests necessarily cross over.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...71&c=FEA&s=SPE

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well it would seem I've come full circle back to my very first post on this thread but, instead of dealing with the full
tank (BLACK EAGLE & T-95) my concern and where I need YOUR help is for non-blog & non-wikipedia source information concerning Russia's "newest" ERA package which is just now starting to be applied to their T-90 tanks. Of this information I'm good with, that it was developed for BLACK EAGLE and to have replaced KONTAKT-5, one of the best ERA tiles out there, on the T-95 I'm there. However to ask Don to apply what little information I have that it's 30-50% (From above sources.) more effective then KONTAKT-5, well "I" can't find any real "technical" data for the RELIKT ERA tiles to submit that. At best I'll err on the conservative side of 10%-20% for submission. So for you Russian tank folks this is your opportunity. I need this info within the next 36 hours please as I'm quite frankly two months behind schedule from posting the first PP for 6.0, sorry!

By way of update dropping avaition for the first PP. Had some Land Equip. issues come up over the last month or two so the focus will be there on PP #1 (Is anyone else getting the urge too...never mind!?!) and am re-verifying data entered already going back to April/May time-frame.

Here's an interesting piece of info I came across, this Janes article really made the rounds on the blogs etc. and it's worth noting some of the comments.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...to-Examination

Again thanks in advance for any support here, this is really the last piece of the puzzle I need for PP...well I really don't want to say it...but now I gotta go!!

Regards,
Pat

[Imp]

In game terms Pat Kontac change probably makes little diffrence, might possibly want to increase the number by one for some units / facings but not worth worying about to much.
I do remember reading the original tests by Rheinmetal & their amazement at how good it was & sudden effort to produce a new gun & move ammo tech forward

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

John good to hear from you, I just found it interesting that RELIKT is supposedly 3 to 5 times more effective than KONTAKT-5. Given that, it would seem a first, second or more "first" kill opportunity mathematically decreases significantly. The big difference with RELIKT over most other ERA packages is that it truly does give top turret protection much as the ERA package for the newer IDF MERKAVA 4 (And installed on older ones during Maint. Depot work.) and TDF M-60T. I am also assuming the software in the game accounts for the ERA getting blown off as well until you get to the point of steel after so many hits in the same area? Hope you found the article interesting as I found one or two others in my search that supported the same conclusions to similar degrees. Not to worry after I get cleaned up will be taking advantage of an empty house while CINCLANTHOME is camping with family and friends to finish up #1 for 2012.
This video is good in describing the various protection systems of the modern tank and it's from Russia with subtitles for those that need it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h4uUfYnXUw

Also of note their are several videos out now to show the BLACK EAGLE being tested and the T-95 though still not fully in "focus" enough to give you an idea of it's appearance and some capability mostly that they did not go with the 152mm as you'll see on the BLACK EAGLE videos.

Regards,
Pat

[whdonnelly]

While not an MBT, I wonder if any of your sources have more info on this Scimitar upgrade?

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...Operations.htm

Thanks
Will

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Will and other interested parties,
For the SCIMITAR this is as good as any place for it as I will not start a Recon Thread and wish someone would take up the UAV cause since there's been so MANY new UAV's out there now with many new users. I'm pontificating thus digressing-sorry!?! I will say upon further reading I will need to address this in my next Patch Post. We are looking at 1. RESET units.
2. Up armored/slat armor. 3. ERA. 4. Redesigned hull which equates to increased crew survival (Along w/1-3 of course.)
5. Increased performance I.E. speed and maneuverability etc.
6. Improved Thermal Sights (TI/GSR). 7. Date extension as required to 2020 (+ in real life if you read the refs carefully.)
8. And Marcello's and my favorite, for those who've followed along in the past, AIR CONDITIONING!!!!
Anyway from my sources...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...s_1809113.html
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news130269.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...d-Kingdom.html
(John you need to get that fund raising campaign going!?!)
http://www.military-today.com/apc/fv107_scimitar.htm
(As noted before because they have good info, lead on new equipment and have great pictures to build off on, though sometimes slow on updating, but in this case it's to our advantage.)

Pic:


These will provide a useful comparison to the "new"
SCIMITAR MKII. And there are some differences if you look carefully beyond the obvious slat armor.

From a little extra research...
http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/N...181594242.html
http://rokuth.wordpress.com/2011/09/...-scimitar-mk2/
DON'T NORMALLY LIKE blog sites but, he provides some good videos as well.

Also the first article/post was from a regular source of mine as well the "DID" site, Defence Industry...another excellent site that provides regular updates to their articles.

So Will, I hope this helped? My case is presented here as well, so the Patch Post will be easier per agreement-thanks Don for that concession! And I'm off to bed!!

Regards,
Pat

[Imp]

Oh erm yes every time there is some money in the kitty it seems to develop its own cause & fritter away, still the drinks cabinet is looking well stocked.

[whdonnelly]

Pat,
Great stuff. I love this vehicle and often use it in ambush scenarios to shred the AFVs, being fast and much lower cost than the M2 or M3 Bradleys,and allows me to save the tanks and their precious ammo for other tanks. The vision upgrade was the improvement I was most concerned with, so naturally that part gave me the hardest time finding information.
Thanks a lot,
Will

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I was able to go back with the segments from the first Patch Post of 2011/2012 and word tech them and fix some errors, so these are all cleaner then the PP. I was in the mind set of just getting it done, and it showed in the MBT section where it shows I just dragged this out for three months on research, work and other issues. Of course there will be some news at the end but as most times for pics you'll have to go back to the Patch Post. Aviation heavy turned into Land heavy over the course and as such I'll still have a couple of these to present on PP Part II BEFORE the Aviation cycle. So...

This is the first Patch Post for the 2011/2012 campaign. Mostly I'll be revisiting a couple of items from the last campaign, but as such things tend to work out, in researching one topic it invariably leads down a different path or as I like to say "I'm going down the rabbit hole again." that starts right off with my first item. For those that recently started on the topic in the last couple of months, see how the issues with Turkeys LEOPARD 1 tanks lead to other issues. Again I respectfully request that all well intentioned inputs not be posted here, this is for Don, Andy and others who are directly involved with the patch to raise any issues with what I've submitted. I just don't have the time at present with especially work etc. to lose my focus and present the information I have to present and answer any questions from the "Bosses". As I've already indicated this will be aviation heavy just not much else going on out there and though some major deals are pending "supposedly" such as ARMA 6x6 which just this past week signed (OTAKAR) a second contract with another or same unknown country, the 200 OPLOT tank deal with Thailand and the Ethiopian 200 T-72 (AG) (What's with the Ukraine and the # 200 with these deals?) upgraded tank deal both with unknown transaction dates, I just can't in good conscience submit them yet. If no end date is given it will be DEC 2020. Post referrals are again within the topic thread unless noted otherwise. So let's get started by the threads:

MBT’s
1. The matter of the Turkish LEOPARD tanks needs some updating as the record will show; this is to include a significant increase in service life, partially to allow for the M60T development program and just the need to keep and update their newer tanks to allow for the retirement of the former U.S. M48 series tanks they hold. But more importantly all three LEOPARD 1 series tanks bought by Turkey (As well as the LEO 2A4 tanks later.) would prove invaluable as test beds for the ALTAY indigenous tank program, specifically in regards to the ASALEN VOLCAN FCS. The LEOPARD 1 series would incorporate what is considered the MK I FCS w/2nd Gen TS which prompted my Patch Post TI/GSR ? in Posts #49 & #50. Note: The order of upgrades below is simply an educated guess based on the fact that it would make sense to upgrade the older tanks first and leaving the more capable tanks in the field as the upgrade progresses. All we have are the start and end dates of the upgrade from the Turkish government and other sources. The LEO 2A4 would constitute the further improvement of the VOLCON FCS to include the EAGLE EYE TS this would be the MK II system. These tanks would constitute the 1T and 2T sets. The ALTAY will incorporate the MK III system when it comes online. The ASALEN program started in 2002 and ended in 2009, so the end dates should be close based on the number of tanks upgraded, I'm allowing for production time as these are almost taken back to a RESET condition as extensive turret and rewiring work had to be done to include internal hull work as well for additional cooling and rewiring required by the updated systems as well. The previous follows the same logical conclusions as to the start dates when the 1T versions first became available. *There are some "rumors" that some armor work was done as well on the LEO 1 tanks but I can not support that, however the LEO 2A4 were supposeitly updated to the LEO 2A5 level by KMW before leaving Germany at Turkeys request, this is likely, however it's your call. All Turkish LEOPARD tanks came from German stock.

C1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A3T1/UNIT 035/CHANGE/DATES to SEP 1982-DEC 2020/As noted above in Para. / Total ordered 77 MBT + 4 ARV. All operational units NOT converted to the LEOPARD-1T.

C2. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A1/UNIT 033/CHANGE/To LEOPARD-1A1A1/JUN 1991-JUN 2004/Use GERMAN UNIT 012/The 1A1A1 had a heavier armor package on it in particular around the turret. I can find no evidence that these tanks arrived in Turkey prior to 1990. However as with all the Turkish LEOPARD tanks they are still in service today and into the foreseeable future unless noted otherwise. Total ordered 80 MBT, All operational units CONVERTED to the LEOPARD-1T see A1.

A1. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A1A1-1T/JUN 2006-DEC 2020/USE Turkish UNIT 037 for TI/GSR, FC, RF, & STAB. This is to maintain continuity in the VOLKAN FCS MK I upgrade program & GERMAN UNIT 012. /These were the first to be upgraded with the VOLKAN FCS MK I. Only 171 LEOPARD I Series tanks were converted to this standard, see below as to why. Again only the LEOPARD-A1A1 and A1A4 made up the LEOPARD-1T

A2. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A4T1/JUN 1990-JUN 2007/USE German UNIT 023. /German unit 023 is the best match as the TI/GSR value matches the above unit (C1) to reflect the upgrade to the Carl Ziess EMES-12A3 FCS which Germany also put on their LEO 1A4 tanks. Total ordered 150 MBT. All converted to the LEOPARD-1T.

C3. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A3T2/UNIT 037/CHANGE/To LEOPARD-1A4-1T/JUN 2007-DEC 2020/USE German UNIT 023 for ARMOR and WEAPONS. /
Note: As of 9/4/2011 I've come back to fix this section again, but as I noted above in error* and correctly below* (Back in June.) the armor levels were not updated for the LEOPARD-1T upgrade program as it only dealt with the addition of the VOLKAN FCS MK1. This situation there for doesn't allow for adding just a LEOPARD-1T because the two tanks used retained their original armor levels which is why A1 & C3 are the way they are to show the tank it was derived from and to identify it as the LEOPARD-1T by adding the -1T at the end. It was really the only practical way I could see to show the transition from origin to finished product.

D1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A2/DELETE/Turkey did not buy this version of the LEOPARD.

* I'm putting in a break here to remind everyone that these are "living" documents with information changing due to newer sources etc. becoming available. Here is an example of how this works, almost three weeks just on the above and the process to finish the LEOPARD issues below, this was brought up in a thread. So...

The LEOPARD 1 tanks did not receive any armor upgrades during the 1T program it was simply for the VOLCAN MK I FCS. Also ref 1 is supported by pic (Poster.) as regards to the dates presented above. Am splitting the refs at this point to avoid confusion between the FCS marks for Turkey’s LEO tanks.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product152.html
Focus on Variant section A1 TO A14 and Turkey section near bottom.
http://www.tanknutdave.com/component/content/article/75
See Turkey section at bottom.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard.htm
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/...d1A1A1A4T.aspx
From the Undersecretariat for Defense Industry, the office is responsible for procurement, R&D and the coordination of government. private and joint defense industry companies.
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en Aselsan is government owned. VOLKAN FCS MK I.
Pic:

Is posted here as a reference which I came across while researching the LEOPARD-2T. Also from the Undersecretariat for Defense Industry, responsible for procurement, R&D and the coordination of government. private and joint defense industry companies. This shows not only accurate dates (HIZMETE GIRIS TARIHI = SERVICE ARRIVAL DATE.) but also the unit designation within the Turkish military. Note the date of MAY 2010 Rev. 2. As you'll see the 2T below does not match the picture here.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...59&c=EUR&s=LAN

A3. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-2A4/JAN 2006-DEC 2008/USE GERMAN UNIT 030/Turkey requested no mods be done by ether KMW or MAK in Germany. All these tanks would end up being RESET to the LEOPARD-2T standard as shown next. Relaying on the fact that the M-60T and LEOPARD-1T series were finishing completion of their programs, Turkey started to feed all 298 MBT ordered into the assembly line for upgrade. This is all ALTAY program driven.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1645.html
Lower left contract section.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-turkey-01473/
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/Pic ref above.

M1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-2A4T/UNIT 039/MODIFY/To LEOPARD-2T/Dates to JUN 2011-DEC 2020/Main Gun 120mm L44 to 120mm L55 with turret mounted RWS 12.7mm, or optional 7.62mm or 40mm AGL. /Armor as required/All TI/GSR & FCS info as required. /NEW ICON. /
All 298 tanks were taken off the line to be RESET with many of the features that will be found on the ALTAY tank. The pictures speak for themselves especially the one showing the LEOPARD-2T along side a LEOPARD-2A4. We have seen how far a LEO 4can be upgraded just look to Canada with the LEOPARD-2A4M CAN and Chile with the LEOPARD-2A4CHL among others. Again this tank will incorporate the ASELAN VOLCAN MK II FCS. It needs to be remembered they are receiving some cooperation from Israel
(M60T with KNIGHT III FCS as carried on late model MERK 3 and early MERK 4 tanks also with part of the current model MERK 4 armor package.), Germany in the LEOPARD support area and the technical licensing with S. Korea with the K-2. They have all the tools, money and technical support needed internally and externally to make things happen. Not "flag waving" here, as most know I've been following Turkey and a handful of other countries MBT development for quite sometime, if you will, because "that's where the action is" in new tank development. Except for the FCS (Might be better?) info, I would recommend the armor set at a level equal to the newest current German LEOPARD-2A6 UNIT 277 or 267 if splitting the difference, unless you can get something more out of the refs and pics I've submitted. This tank could be that good and it is the build from for the ALTAY using some of the armor tech for that MBT.
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en VOLKAN FCS MK II.
http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=55&lang=en EAGLEEYE FCS.
http://vimeo.com/23746043
I understand the connection limitations you had with your computer but this video plays clean and covers the LEOPARD-2T upgrade pretty well mixing real video of the tank with computer generated images.
http://www.turkishjournal.net/index....d-2-tanks.html
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...nks-2011-05-06
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...106ee4ca41a52a
http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/landw...solution/9013/
Pics:

M2. CHILE//LEOPARD-2A5/UNIT 028/MODIFY/To LEOPARD-2A4CHL/Main Gun 120mm L44 to 120mm L55/Armor levels to the LEOPARD-2A6. German UNIT 037 would be a good fit, better then UNIT 035 that came off the line in 2008./These tanks were 2A4 tanks modified by KMW in Germany at Chiles request to the 2A6 level. See M1 lead in Para.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1645.html
Para. 6.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm
See Para. 5 & 11. Also supports M1. above.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...le-sold-04316/
http://www.deagel.com/Main-Battle-Ta...000451001.aspx
http://www.leopard2.com/variants/

C4. NETHERLANDS/LEOPARD-2NLA6/UNIT 038/CHANGE/End Date MAY 2011./A victim of hard times, at the height of the Cold War the Dutch had almost 1,000 MBT's and what was left were 63 LEOPARD-2NLA6 tanks. The CV-90 will serve as the backbone of their "armor" with a heavy reliance on their AH's for anti-tank support. A proud tradition has passed from their armed services of almost 90 years with recent deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Also they will be selling their COUGAR helos as well along with the LEOPARD tanks, how about it Canada, need more LEOPARDs?
http://www.defensie.nl/english/lates...ds_with_a_bang
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24905/
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news120180.html
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-up-tanks.html

R1. INDIA/ARJUN/ARJUN+1/UNITS 020 & 021/REMINDER/CHANGE/HF HEAT value. /I can't seem to locate the Posts involved but what I believe what you considered was something between 82-87./To the poster who caught the error, my apologies for not remembering your "name" please feel free to remind me here when posted, it was a good catch that I missed as well.

R2. NORTH KOREA/P'okpoong-Ho/UNIT 025/REMINDER/CHANGE/Main Gun to 115mm/Up armor to T-72 (?)/See MBT thread Posts...never mind Pages 10 - 15./I believe we did settle on the gun issue (Pg. 11 Post #108.) but based on the posts we had the discussion about why the extra 2m length (Pg.14 Post #139.) and extra set of road wheels. Your thinking and I agree based on "hints" in the refs suggest besides having a larger engine (Fact.) it was probably up armored as well. Your thinking was something in the line of a T-72 (Pg. 15 Post #144.) though the "Po" was derived from T-62M1 tank. Thanks again to Marcello for his inputs. On to something else this is giving me "day mares" before I go to bed for the "nightmares" within the hour, in fact I'm stopping here!?!

News...
1. ARJUN MKII apparently will not be fielded until 2015 and it will be the most expensive tank in the world at close to 8 million US dollars making it more expensive than the ABRAMS (Which currently holds that title.) which is around 6.2 million a copy. Arjun MkII will be around ten tons heavier then the MKI (2.5 for the ERA pkg. alone.)
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...ost-rs-37.html
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/27433/
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/27210/

2. Poland to offer the the urban combat PT-72U produced by BUMAR.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57

3. Iran getting set for the production of the ZULFIQAR-3. Also note the ZULFIQAR-2 are only test beds. I think this could be a game issue if that's the case.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...1_2209113.html

4. Thailands OPLOT deal with the UKRAINE moving forward as contract for the first tanks was signed almost two weeks ago.
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/busines...detail/112098/
http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/3727.html

5. Indoesia to upgrade it's AMX-13 tanks.
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56

6. For this last, Russia is going on a massive spending spree to upgrade it's army this is to include armor in a major way. I'll start by saying the BLACK EAGLE (Post #1-#5.) is not dead...yet. A choice will be made ethier for it or the T-95 so that production can begin in 2014. Also the T-90 will be upgraded as well by the T-90M and T-90AM (Same tank?) which I still have to sort out as I'm finding info for both. The T-90M would fir the Posts #162 -#164.
T-95/or T-99...
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110910/166687063.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...4_1009111.html
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news129617.html

T-90...
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._pictures.html
http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90/

Well that's it here! Time to hit the rack to avoid any "sea state" issues.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well a little news and updates.

1. First up the Polish ANDERS, it has successfully been tested on another weapons system, the Belgian CT-CV 105mm cannon. So for those keeping score that's the Bushmaster 30mm, RUAG 120mm and now the CT-CV 105mm. I'm thinking a contract within the year, possibly the Netherlands after retiring their LEO's last May or to an Asian country.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...n_2309113.html
Pic:


2. The "new" Russian T-90S, I believe I've got it figured out that the T-90M will be the Russian version with the T-90AM the export version, as suspected in an earlier post (About 2 or 3 back, I think.), so here's latest the ref, it's the best look at the tank I've seen thus far. I believe I might submit this for the next Patch Post (#2). This also has the newer ERA package also discussed in this thread as will be used on the either the T-95 or T-99 "BLACK EAGLE" of which no decision has yet been announced on which [b]will[b] go into production.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/octob...1_0210111.html
Pic:


3. I find the Greek M1A1 thread very interesting, but have not seen anything yet either to support it from my sources plus, DOD, DOA or Stars and Stripes. However I'll keep a watch out for it as well. This ref has been updated to reflect the current export deals such as 1. Saudi Arabia upgrades, 2. Egypt's additional tanks they are to get and 3. Iraq's final 126 tanks (Out of 140.)and 7 TRVs will be delivered by this December on time. Please note the "Operator" section upper left. Again this ref is updated.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/

But if I may, why would they note Australia's M1A1 tanks under the DU Armor protection section? Did that question ever get resolved last year about this time dealing with that issue?

Regards,
Pat