Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[llamabeast]

Redeyes - right, sorry, I got confused between the A5 and A6 statistics.

1.833056640625%

[Peter Ebbesen]

As we all know, Alexander the Great did not exist and he had an infinite number of limbs. That isn't the topic for today. The proof hinges on the fact that forearmed is forewarned, so let us turn to today's topic: the 4-armed pretenders. Known by their titanic size, their 1 miscellaneous slot, their 3 strength dominion and, yes, their 4 arms.

Specifically for Lanka, which is the nation I have examined them most in in CBM, it seems there is a minor issue, but an annoying one - the thematic pretenders are completely outclassed by the generic pretenders and, even worse, by pretenders that are just about as unthematic as they can get. (Which isn't the general case: See e.g. T'ien C'hi's Jade Emperor)

The thematic ones are:
- Destroyer of Worlds (100): Whose A2D2 makes the price tag reasonable and along the general lines of cost but makes for a poor chassis for just about all occasions because just about all recruitable commanders and national summons for Lanka are air/death mages already and neither air nor death makes for strong blesses and Lanka is, usually, all about having a strong bless. He has better attack/defense values than the Nataraja (+3/+2), but for Lanka pretenders aren't chosen for their melee SC abilities as a general rule.
- Deva (75): Whose single-path B2, the single cheapest path for other pretenders to acquire when running a blood nation, seems grossly overpriced compared to the other titan sized pretenders (and especially the Nataraja, who costs 25; Ok, the Deva has 2 higher base attack skill, but she really feels overpriced). With the correct amount of blood magic to invest in on most pretenders being 0 or 1 since 1 is all that is needed to start the blood process for non-blood nations, one is actually paying 75 points for what anybody else could pick up at their basic path cost.
- Nataraja: (Who really ought to side with the opposition) has a good S2 to start with and a very cheap 25 price tag.


And the Nataraja, despite its very cheap cost, is completely overshadowed by the generic Lady of Fortune pretender that Lanka also has access to, who, for a mere 50 points (25 more than the Nataraja), gets a point of water magic and good luck events in her province thrown in. The Natarajas 2 extra hands at the cost of a miscellaneous slot is probably a wash overall - better SC melee and defense but no option to use the standard sorcery/wizardry ring combination so common for high level spellcasting.


When considering the rest of the available pretenders, the vast majority have either no magic or overlap at least in part with the national magics - out of the 29 possible pretenders for Lanka, with Lanka having only ADNB as national magics, there are 15 who bring some new path to the table but only 6 (Fountain, Nataraja, Mother of Rivers, Lady of Fortune, Cyclops, Dragon (red)) that focus on non-national paths. As the strongest blessings for Lanka tends to be two (or three) of F, W, E with optional S or N components thrown in, that means that as of 1.6, it is likely that the vast majority of pretenders made by human players for Lanka, Land of Demons, are Mothers of Rivers or Ladies of Fortune with the rare Great Mother or Cyclops thrown in.

Ideally, changes would be made to make the Nataraja competitive with the Lady of Fortune and to make the Destroyer of Worlds and Deva of some interest other than choosing a bad pretender for the nation with a whiff of flavour.

------

I'll throw some suggestions into the ring to start with, but as there are many nations I don't have a strong feel for, they are probably not the most appropriate - feel free to come up with better changes: The intention is not to make the currently rarely seen thematic ones overshadow the generic ones but to make them competitive whether by equal magic, better generic effects, or whatever:

Now, the Nataraja is shared with Arcoscephale, Kailasa, Caelum, and T'ien C'hi (if I recall all of them and in most ages of the nations), so balancing him may take a bit of work - otoh, almost all of those get the Lady of Fortune as well, so it is really a Nataraja (S2, 25) vs. Lady of Fortune (WS2, 50) balancing for those nations too in his current form; My suggestion would be to focus on his role as Lord of the Dance, Destruction leading to Creation, in the Dom3 Death and Rebirth interpretation: Have him autocast relief in battle as the world rejoices at his dancing. This won't make him a popular choice for Lanka due to the need for a heavy bless, but it will, perhaps, make him compete with the Lady of Fortune for some of the other nations - a mobile auto relief could come in quite handy for those relying on national armies. Alternatively, make him an FS2 caster to more closely mirror the destruction/creation aspect or do both and boost him to the 50 price tag (same pirace as Lady of Fortune, Jade Emperor, and many other of the non 2/2 path pretenders)

The Destroyer of Worlds sees action for Caelum and Kailasa (all ages), and Yomi - ironically, the only nation to whom he really brings something truly useful is Kailasa when the goody-two-shoes are in charge and neither air nor death are national magics (though a rainbow mage is probably more useful). His magic is entirely appropriate but it just doesn't make him a good choice for those for whom it would be thematic the job. I would suggest making him E2D2 or AED2 (just as thematic: hey, he's armed with both iron and lightning) rather than A2D2 or perhaps as an alternative, give him an autocasting battlefield wide Wind of Death... if there was a reasonable way to make him not take damage himself One day, I'd love to see a pretender autocast battle fortune in battle just for fun - a martial pretender whom soldiers love to follow, but that is probably much too strong due to its likely crippling impact on blitz games.

The Deva is shared like the Destroyer of Worlds and visits two ages of T'ien C'hi as well. Nobody likes her. Let's face it: The Deva is a zero cost throwaway combat pretender that comes with blood 2 and a 75 point cost. Perhaps the best thing to do would simply be to set her cost to zero - an equally but different terrible alternative to the terrible manticore for those who have her as an option. Now, that might be boring. As an alternative, make her a FEB2 caster and keep the current price tag. That's 3 magic paths for 75 and a possible bless chassis. For Lanka one is probably going to stick with the cheaper Lady of Fortune if going for a standard major FW bless or WE (or WN), but it might be used for blesses including minor E components and major F components or vice versa - and the ability to cheaply add a B4 bless is worth something (though not much).


So, any other opinions on the 4 armed pretenders as they exist in CBM 1.6 given the pretenders they compete against for selection choice? Am I off my rocker? Do you guys use them all the time? If I actually do have a poitn, what should be done with them to better balance them versus the competition?

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive been watching for the initial post to change. But I guess since I have to restart all the games on the Dom3 server anyway, I will go ahead and ask. Has this shifted from an early version to the official one? Should I download this one and use it, or wait?

[Jack_Trowell]

Demon Knights still use the normal "hoof" attack, it seems they should get the improved "warhorse hoof" attack that other knight type units get in CBM (or maybe something like a specific "nightmare hoof" attack as they are riding demon steeds).

[HoneyBadger]

I'm wondering that too, Gandalf.


I like your Nightmare Hoof idea, as long as it makes demon knights more expensive/harder to get. A lot of strategies seem to eventually boil down to "and then summon demon knights at your leisure".

Maybe the hoof attack could have a small chance of feebleminding their target? It seems rather appropriate for a kick in the head.

[Squirrelloid]

The Allfather pretender seems really overpriced. Not only that, but his innate magic paths offer nothing really to any of the nations that can choose him. There was complaint about the Destroyer of Worlds above, and the DoW is a much better buy than the Allfather.

I'm tempted to recommend halving his price to 75 pts, but 100 would be a decent step in the right direction.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Is the Destroyer of Worlds really such a clear better buy at 100 (for those who can buy him) than the Allfather is at 150? (for those who can buy him). I would tend to think not, though I agree that 150 sure feels like an awful lot when creating the pretender.

While he is obviously inferior to the DoW in starting magic (AD vs A2D2) and thus for blessing purposes of less use, additional paths cost 30 rather, useful for those going for smaller blesses or a touch of rainbow magic. Moreover, the reason people take the Allfather (when not just in order to be thematic) is usually to get a powerful awake or dormant SC with minimal research and equipment needs, and he certainly fits that role very well, considerably better than the DoW does, operating at a very strong level early on while providing some magical coverage later in the game; while the DoW may have 4 arms, the Allfather is flying, has glamour, and gets his own extra attacks (from 2xHoof(20)) (not to mention being extremely stealthy to boot). He can also sail huge armies across oceans, which can be anything from worthless to quite good depending on map.

His eyeloss and lack of foot slot hurts, but being mounted is fairly useful, so it is not all bad news.

For me, the reason not to take him is more that he doesn't provide the sort of power bless that is common for those very few who can get him (3 ages of Vanheim and one of Helheim) than because of his price for what he does, and for that reason alone I am tempted to think that lowering his price alone isn't going to make him a more popular pretender in general: At a whopping 150 points, he remains the most powerful early-game SC of the available chassis for Vanheim and Helheim (and one of the most powerful SC chassis amongst pretenders in the game in general).

For the games I like to play (60-80+ turns), he probably ought to have a lower cost (given the general CBM changes), but what, if any, would be the impact on blitz games from having a 75 points Allfather as you suggest? (I don't know).

What is the true value of glamour on an SC chassis? (Most of us would kill for it, but what's that in points? ) What is the true value of having path costs of 30 rather than, say, 50? What is the true cost of starting with an affliction that puts one just one eyeloss from blindness, even if the stats have been adjusted to compensate for it?

I find the Allfather devilishly hard to set a point value for because he just has way too many options available to him and several really good base abilities that everybody wants to get (such as flying) or wish they had (glamour).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Is the Destroyer of Worlds really such a clear better buy at 100 (for those who can buy him) than the Allfather is at 150? (for those who can buy him). I would tend to think not, though I agree that 150 sure feels like an awful lot when creating the pretender.

While he is obviously inferior to the DoW in starting magic (AD vs A2D2) and thus for blessing purposes of less use, additional paths cost 30 rather, useful for those going for smaller blesses or a touch of rainbow magic. Moreover, the reason people take the Allfather (when not just in order to be thematic) is usually to get a powerful awake or dormant SC with minimal research and equipment needs, and he certainly fits that role very well, considerably better than the DoW does, operating at a very strong level early on while providing some magical coverage later in the game; while the DoW may have 4 arms, the Allfather is flying, has glamour, and gets his own extra attacks (from 2xHoof(20)) (not to mention being extremely stealthy to boot). He can also sail huge armies across oceans, which can be anything from worthless to quite good depending on map.

His eyeloss and lack of foot slot hurts, but being mounted is fairly useful, so it is not all bad news.

For me, the reason not to take him is more that he doesn't provide the sort of power bless that is common for those very few who can get him (3 ages of Vanheim and one of Helheim) than because of his price for what he does, and for that reason alone I am tempted to think that lowering his price alone isn't going to make him a more popular pretender in general: At a whopping 150 points, he remains the most powerful early-game SC of the available chassis for Vanheim and Helheim (and one of the most powerful SC chassis amongst pretenders in the game in general).

For the games I like to play (60-80+ turns), he probably ought to have a lower cost (given the general CBM changes), but what, if any, would be the impact on blitz games from having a 75 points Allfather as you suggest? (I don't know).

What is the true value of glamour on an SC chassis? (Most of us would kill for it, but what's that in points? ) What is the true value of having path costs of 30 rather than, say, 50? What is the true cost of starting with an affliction that puts one just one eyeloss from blindness, even if the stats have been adjusted to compensate for it?

I find the Allfather devilishly hard to set a point value for because he just has way too many options available to him and several really good base abilities that everybody wants to get (such as flying) or wish they had (glamour).

Have you actually tried to play with him against real people? (everything works against the computer, after all).

He's not that exciting as an early SC. Actually, he's pretty craptastic. His starting gear is pretty bad. His stats are sort of ho-hum for a titan chassis. He has terrible early buffing potential with his innate paths. (Nothing useful until alt3 for mistform). See below for glamour. He has neither fear nor awe, so D5 and Dom9 are mandatory additional expenses on top of his 150pt pricetag. That's another 227 points *minimum* on just basic SC necessities, for a starting price of 377 points, and you haven't even tried to use that 30pt/new path yet.

Glamour is just free mirror image. Its really not all that, I don't know why people get so worked up about it. Yeah, its exciting when your basic troops have it. But your commanders with air magic can just *cast mirror image* - of course, you rarely do this because its a situational buff. (In fact, for an SC its not a very good one because they're supposed to be fighting *armies* - its most useful for anti-SCs who expect to be fighting one creature). Value of glamour on an SC chassis? Almost nothing.

That he has sailing is irrelevant. So does every fricking commander for the nations that can choose him. And if he's an SC, he's not taking an army with him. The ability is flavor and nothing more.

He flies, great. He also has no boots slot. So basically he gets free boots of flying - which costs what, 10a? 7a with a hammer? And it means you can't give him any different boots instead.

Compared to the Destroyer of Worlds, he's down a boots slot and 2 hand slots, and up 1 misc slot. Ie, net down 2 slots. As you noted, he's A1D1 instead of A2D2, so he's down 2 paths. His paths are also totally useless for Helheim or Vanheim, who have air magic and death magic already, and don't want air or death blesses - not even minor ones. And the DoW is available to Kailasa, who can actually want an A9 bless, and with sacred archers and mages a D8 bless could be entertaining. Ie, the DoW has better paths for the nations that can take it than the Allfather does, even assuming those path lengths were equal.

At 150pts awake, the fact that he can get new paths for 30pts doesn't actually mean much because you *don't have many points to spend*. Even asleep 30pts is a really expensive rainbow, and 150pts is a really expensive opening for a rainbow.

If you take him asleep he's no longer an early expander SC. Which means any advantage he might have had of having flying early is gone, because you could just make boots of flying for your other cheaper pretender at this point.

Lets compare him to some other pretenders Vanheim/Helheim/Midgard have:

Father of Winters:
Adv: Better stats (+1 defense/str), better protection (by one), better weapon out of the box, Cold Power, Chill Aura (of large), a magic path Van/hel might actually want to use for a major bless (Water), a boot slot, 6 more base hp, 50 points cheaper, +1 additional total paths (3 vs. 2)
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with his boot slot. More expensive new paths - at 50 pts cheaper the first new path is free by comparison, and we have a much better innate path for a bless anyway.

Asynja (this one's going to be embarassing):
Adv: Vastly better stats (8 more defense, 3 more att, mere 1 less str, even better precision fwiw), better weapon, much better armor (chainmail of displacement!), 3 more base hp, 2A vs. 1A1D, bootslot, 125pts less
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with boots. 50 pts/new path, but at 25 pts the first *2.5* are effectively free by comparison.

Blue Dragon
Adv: Also flies, better str/att (worse base def, but magic path will fix that), much better protection, better attack routine, breath weapon, magic path we actually care about on the pretender, 100points cheaper, innate Fear +5
Disad: Fewer slots, Much more expensive additional paths (yeah, but we saved 100 points on the chassis, and we get a good bless to boot)

Keeper of the Bridge
Adv: +1 att, much better protection, magic path we actually care about (E), 100 pts cheaper
Disad: 1 less str, 2 fewer base hp, more expensive new paths, doesn't fly (hey, these are actually comparable - too bad one's 100 pts cheaper)

Wyrm:
Adv: 78 more base hp!, Much higher str, att, prot (lower defense), regeneration of awesome, fear +0, amphibious, better attack routine, 100 pts less, extra head slot
Disad: Doesn't fly, fewer slots, no magic, more expensive paths

Totally owns Allfather as an early SC. At the point savings, can afford a magic path (or two!) trivially by comparison.

------
The allfather is worse than all of those, maybe comparable at best (the Keeper of the Bridge has E, which makes it arguable, although for the nations in question i'd say the Keeper is marginally better), and that's before even considering relative point cost. At 2-3x the point cost of the other options, the fact that he is *worse* than them is just appalling. The two things he routinely does better are flying and cheaper new paths. Of course, the first is only relevant if you take him awake (easy to solve with forging for nations that have abundant air), and the second is impossible to get any relative advantage out of because his base cost is so expensive you don't have the points left to really use it - especially if you take him awake to use the early flying.

And of course, the allfather should also be balanced against the opposition as well. Consider Moloch/PoD/Gorgon. All of which come with Fear (often powerful fear), 3 total paths, flying, full slots (no missing boot slot), and other abilities. in current CBM their point costs are 125/125/150 respectively, and they all are much better than the allfather as early SCs, and 2 of them are better as bless chasses.

He even compares unfavorably to the vampire queen, who, while physically unimpressive, does have a host of useful abilities, the same new magic path cost and flight, and is immortal.

If the allfather was as good as a gorgon (equal to it in combat potential, equally useful magical paths for the nation it belongs to), it would be worth 150 points. Neither its magic paths nor its combat ability live up to that comparison.

[kianduatha]

I'm here to talk about Glaives(and their bastard son, Coral Glaives).

I would posit that in fact, all troops who use glaives are inferior. Now, I recognize that there are sometimes instances where one really does just need to punch through 20 protection or so. Unfortunately, most high protection troops have at least average defense scores(and many even have shields). Because glaives have an attack penalty, most of the time you are better off using a different troop that has a better attack score to score more hits(and get more chances at a crit), get past shields, and soforth.

Moreover, the only nations who use glaives don't need high-damage troops, as they use 15+ strength troops.

[Graeme Dice]

I think that the Allfather's high price is a holdover from the Dom2 days, where the differences in mechanics really did make him close to being worth that cost.