Helo News game related.

[Pibwl]

Spain

520-523 - HA.28 - according to article in Polish "Lotnictwo" 6/21 and Spanish https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC665_Tigre it has a name "Tigre".
First version used in Spain was HAP (and it might have been its designation - Helicóptero de Apoyo y Protección), but it was armed only in 30mm gun, rockets and Mistrals.

Spike was introduced only with Tigre HAD (Helicóptero de Ataque y Destrucción), delivered from 2015 and probably operational from 2016, when they fired first Spike [now: all 1/08]

Now we have HAP units 520 and 521 with 4 Mistrals and 22 or 44 rockets. Since it can carry 44 rockets and 4 Mistrals, a weaker one seems redundant. But, as this photo shows https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...547548575).jpg, maybe unit 520, instead of Mistrals, should carry 68 rockets?...

501,502 HR.15 (Bo-105) - withdrawn in 2017 (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Bo_105 )

Eurocopter EC-135 is used as a light helicopter from 2007 (as HU.26) (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...ic%C3%B3pteros )

We have unit 582 HE.26, but it is wrong - photo and capacity suggest EC Panther or something similar, but HE.26 is a designation of training HU.26 = EC.135 (light helicopter).


507 HT.21L (Puma) - still in use, according to the article and last quoted page (not for long, to be replaced with last deliveries of NH-90)

BTW: should 506 and 507 HT.21 have carry capacity 220? French Pumas have 120, and 509 HT.27 (Cougar) has 125.

581 NH-90 TTH - according to the same page https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...ic%C3%B3pteros Entrada en servicio: 2014 [1/10]

(BTW: I've just searched for NH-90 in German oob... and it seems it isn't there! Used from 2012 at least)

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Spain
...

581 NH-90 TTH - according to the same page https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...ic%C3%B3pteros Entrada en servicio: 2014 [1/10]

More precisely, according to the quoted article, first two were delivered in 9/16 (in 2014 a contract was signed). I don't know when they became operational in significant number, though.
Spanish designation is HT.29.

[Karagin]

Seems the Indians are arming their Russian-made helos with Spike NLOS missiles.

https://organiser.org/2022/04/24/777...ided-missiles/

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/91049275.cms

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/20...g-missile.html

[blazejos]

Mil Mi-2 helicopters were traditionally build in Świdnik Polish Peoples Republic for whole Warsaw Pact and friendly States during cold war. So never were build in USSR factories. But after fall of Soviet Union new Ukrainian State which inherit some Mil construction Bureau blueprints starts to manufacture new modernised variant by Motor-Sich with new glass cockpit. So as for now Ukraine is only manufacturer of Mi-2 because Poland stops to build them quite long time ago and they aren't build in Russia.

Mi-2AM-1


Main difference which is possible to see is longer front nose and different engines than in older Mi-2

https://www.globalplanesearch.com/li...il-MI-2/263235

As you can see here there is now fundraiser to sponsor building this helicopter in Motorsich factory what my help also boost local econmy on Ukraine.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-fun...s-for-ukraine/


Before this new variant were build Mi-2MSB in Ukraine
Nose is like in older helicopters probably cockpit wasn't with glass technology but engine is like in this new variant



In 2015 25 were build in armed variant for Ukrainian army


here more photos of this armed variant
https://defence24.pl/sily-zbrojne/pr...glowca-mi-2msb

And here article from 2021 that they were delivered to navy
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukrai...pers-1796.html

[blazejos]

I just found about another very light helicopter build until war in Kharkiv and most likely used on front-line even if is not official in Ukrainian army probably as a spotter and light liaison.

АК1-3
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/uh/za6.html
https://www.facebook.com/aerocopter.ak1.3/

here destroyed helicopter on front-line
http://www.ukraviaforum.com/index.php/topic,1950.0.html

And here article about Russian conversion of that helicopter to UAV drone
https://defence-blog.com/russia-conv...er-into-drone/

[DRG]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=528dbfd87823


How The Ukrainians Wrecked the Russians’ Best Helicopter Regiments
In part....

The air force went into Russia’s wider war on Ukraine starting in late February with around 100 of the twin-rotor, two-seat Ka-52s. Nine months later it has lost at least 25 of them that independent analysts can confirm.

The best Ka-52 crews got shot down early in the war while trying to penetrate deep behind Ukrainian lines. Now less-skilled crews are easy targets for ever bolder Ukrainian air defenders.

On paper, the Ka-52 is one of the best attack helicopters in the world. With its better optics, night-vision devices and precision missiles than the other main Russian gunship types, the Mil Mi-24 and Mil Mi-28, the Ka-52 initially was a specialist. The Russian air force assigned the type to support special operations forces, especially at night.

The Ka-52 crews’ superior training—a prerequisite for commando ops—made them invaluable to Russian planners in the first few weeks of the invasion of Ukraine, as haphazardly prepared Russian brigades barreled across the border with Ukraine and headed toward Kyiv. The goal: to destroy the Ukrainian government and force the Ukrainian armed forces to surrender.

Russian brigades found themselves deep behind Ukrainian lines. Their communications breaking down. Their logistics fraying. The Kremlin leaned heavily on the Ka-52s to support the troops on the bleeding edge of a risky war plan.

“During the battle for Kyiv, Mi-24 and Mi-28 gunships operated alongside the Ka-52 in the hunter-killer role at night, as well as in daylight,” the RUSI team wrote. “However, typically night operations of this kind have been flown by the Ka-52 fleet due to their superior night-vision equipment.”

The Ukrainians threw everything they had at the Ka-52s and other Russian helicopters, hitting them with anti-tank missiles and even blowing them up on the ground with artillery and drones. But it was the Ukrainians’ thousands of short-range, infrared-guided, man-portable air-defense systems—including American-made Stingers—that killed the most Ka-52 crews.

and further

The Ka-52 crews now have settled on two main tactics. They, like the Mi-24 and Mi-28 crews, often lob unguided rockets in high ballistic arcs. Ballistic launch allows the crews to stay on the Russian side of the front line, where the MANPADS threat is somewhat lighter.

But the ballistic attack method is wildly inaccurate. “Sufficient only to force Ukrainian forces in the open to take cover, or to fix dug-in units in place until the impacts subside,” is how the RUSI study described the method.

The more accurate alternative—to fire a Vikhr anti-tank missile from several miles away—also helps to keep Ka-52 crews on the safer side of the line of contact. But there’s a downside.

The 90-pound Vikhr is a “beam-rider.” A Ka-52 crew must hover a few hundred feet off the ground, shoot a laser beam at the target from as far as six miles away, then fire the missile, which follows the laser all the way to the target.

The problem is, the firing helicopter can’t move until the missile hits. And that can take tens of seconds—an eternity when increasingly skilled Ukrainian MANPADS shooters are nearby. So even after abandoning deep-penetration operations, the Ka-52 crews keep getting shot down.

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by DRG

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=528dbfd87823


How The Ukrainians Wrecked the Russians’ Best Helicopter Regiments
In part....

and further

Well, it feels like beating a dead horse again but...

...helos in the game are WAAAY too resilient. Their countermeasures are godly effective (to the point that no SAM can have more than 5% chance of hitting them), but even the few times that are hit, barely if any damage is scored. I remember this in the WW3 scenarios where Ka-52s are the vehicles from hell that absolutely dominate open field warfare and force you to hide and try to take potshots at them with ATGMs when hovering (!!!)

If this and large caliber HE effectiveness vs. tanks is improved, then the game is perfect.

disclaimer: I havent played the latest patch extensively, so some of these stuff may have already been fixed.

[DRG]

There had been some tweaks last time and I HAVE seen >5% "to hit" and I HAVE seen gunship helos taken down by manpads but this is on our "to investigate further" list. Just had a conversation with Andy about that when we start work probably January. We are thinking ( but have NOT yet fully investigated ) that like the glorious AT defensive systems allegedly common on all those Russian tanks now scrap metal that perhaps the EW ratings for the helos are a bit "generous".....BUT it may be that the "issue" is with the SAM/ manpads. That's what we need to investigate.

Remember the game is built on a lot of guesswork as "real life" data like we are getting now is rare. There has not been wide-open European combined arms combat on this scale since 1945 so there is a bit of a tsunami of data coming in

This type of thing harkens back to the game's very roots. I remember referring to the German HT's in the original SP as the "Murder Machines"

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Tell that to my APACHE crews that along with helicopters are all over "God's Green Earth" this was why several years ago I was wondering if we create "Auto Rotation" in the game you might lose your helicopter but by the same token you might save your crew and some soldiers if in a troop transport helo.

And we did look into this several years ago. Mostly we found some Helos armor was rated lower than they should've been against ammo at the 23mm (VIPOR/APACHE) BECAUSE those values needed weren't available when they were entered into the game. And there were some older ones dating back before Andy and Don to include more contemporary ones as well.

My game world again is ONLY the AI one. When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them.

So, when I "bring them to the party" MANPADS are the least of my problems though they've caused me headaches as well. It's the big stuff that waiting for me and the AI VERY RARELY has disappointed with its "welcoming committee".

This why terrain masking is so important no matter the type.

Some are more resilient because unlike fighters except with some armor around the cockpit they actually figured out years ago helicopters because of their flight limitations might just need more of it.

And don't get me started on the more modern EW and Decoys
that are out there. Those are items we can't fully simulate in the game though they exist in the RW. So I'd call that a tradeoff with the perception helicopters are too "strong".

Last time I checked the Ukraine is a fairly flat and open country and when you use your air assets (Including Helos.) to drop "dumb bombs" over plains and farmland then your commanders as a dumb as the bombs their telling you to drop in that environment.

Even I can shoot down a helo in open country with a "AASIRSBG" ALRIGHT I'll translate-Anti-Aircraft Sneeze Injected Recoil Spit Ball Gun.

We're getting caught up in the videos, we've seen some successes on both sides in using attack Helos and if you've seen the ones, I've seen they're ALL flying "nap of the earth" and fast. There's one of a Ukrainian Mi-24 that was flying no more than 15 ft. over cars on a road.

That MIGHT help to avoid radar detection, makes you harder to hear you coming (Think about it the higher you are the more "space" you create for sound to travel further and wider in all directions. Same concept as Sonar in the open ocean versus in a bay) Which I believe is another thing we can't simulate "Nap of the Earth" flight.

I'm of the opinion that this matter really is a DRAW for both sides of the argument. Not just for the above but also because MANY people have postulated the opposite view that helicopters are too vulnerable.

And there you have it. I terrain mask and still use them. I can count on my hands and the number NOT reaching 10 how many crews have survived one of my 23/25 game generated campaigns when part of my core units.

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) code AND KILL IT.

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

If anything, we need to find the AI Military Intelligence Agency (AIMIA) code AND KILL IT.

Yeah, AIMIA was on purpose there's a hidden message in there.

Regards,
Pat

Somedays I really do dispair.

It's one thing coming from a newbie to the game...... quite another coming from a veteran player

There is a DEAD CERTAIN way to test "theories" like this that take maybe less time than to type a long post about it

Set up a game like this


Why that way you might ask.

This allows you to pick for the AI "attacker" and see what the AI would buy if the AI was the "defender".

This allows you to test theoies like "When I buy Helos or aircraft it amazes me how the AI seems to know I got them."

The answer to that question is in the game. You just have to look for it

So.......... you will need to run this through a half dozen times because like everything else the picklists have randoms built in so it's not the same every time

You want to be able to purchase for the AI so you can test this "how the AI seems to know I got them." theory.

So..... buy the same thing the first few times or alternately whatever floats your boat

To keep it manageable set Ukraine ( or whoever ) to 5000 points and set player 2 to XXX which allows it to buy to it's max for that battle type

Set player 2 air sorties to 15

Buy nothing but gunships for the P2 AI. Quit deploy for P2 and then you will be brought to the deploy screen for P1. Auto deploy ( it's just easier but clicking on manual deploy works too)

Once you see the units for P1 on the map go to the HQ memu........ check how many DEDICATED manpads were bought.... ignore the ones that might be bought with an infantry formation as that is even more randomized and the AI does NOT check what weapons are in an unit or formation before buying it

Do that a few times and count how many Inf sams are bought ( and SPAA / SAMS if you like )

Next do the same thing only this time buy nothing but MBT's for P2

Do that a few times and count how many are bought each time for both types of attack and tell me if you see a significant difference ( you won't ). Keep in mind that the larger the sample the less chance of getting repeatable random events. You want the average of as large a sample as you are willing to take