OT: Alien Contact

[Taera]

i agree on the point regarding war and peace. i was wrong yea happens, so what

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
You are both right. The Orient and Middle East did go through a phase similer to the European dark ages where technological advancment was stagnated due to political and religious pressures. Unfortunatly for them it came later, during the time when Europe was advancing again. The resulting technology gap allowed for the phase of European colonization that persisted into the industrial revolution. The East is only now really recovering from that.

And this is precisely why I always said "European Dark Age."

Originally posted by Aloofi:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages.

Yes, and the Bizantine Empire.
And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms.
But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level.

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The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.

I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize.

I did hint at these sorts of problems many Posts ago when I mentioned translations of the Bible, but it wasn't a big part of the post.

When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap".

That was not my argument. My argument was that the predictions in the Bible were (to use your terminology) crap.

Fyron:

I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk.

He was wrong the same way 6 times, so telling him that over and over again was necessary. He posted events supposedly predicted by the Bible, even though those parts of the Bible were written after those events took place (either days after in the contemporary, or centuries after). I don't own a Bible myself, so I can't very well find those example myself. What I can do is debunk the ones he gave.

Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.

The kind of particles in the experiment make all the difference in the world.

[ February 28, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Imperator Fyron wrote:

The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.

Actually, the events you are disccussing are connected. In 1453 Constantinople, which had been the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire since the 3rd century, was attacked and taken by the Ottoman Turks. The Last Caesar, Constantine XI, was killed in the fighting and so the Empire essentially was destroyed with its capital. The Ottoman Empire would Last until early in the 20th century, btw. It finally collapsed in WW I.

But anyway... the Ottoman ruler was a type we know well today. I don't know if they had a word like 'Fundamentalist' in that era but that is certainly what we would call him. When he took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul, he decided to burn all the 'heathen' books the city was so well stocked with. His reasoning was wonderfully concise. "If the books contain information not in the Koran then they must be wrong, if they contain information already in the Koran then they are superfluous." So anyway, the various Byzantine scholars had to run away to preserve their learning and often their own lives. Since the Ottoman Empire had been encroaching from the East for centuries, they went WEST to Italy.

Look at the date: 1453. This is not only the final end of the Roman Empire, it is also generally recognized as the beginning of the Renaissance. The Ottomans cut their own throats, as it were, by kicking off the Renaissance that would result in the rise of the Western European powers.

[ February 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Fyron]

Ok... so I guess I only knew the very, very basics of that situation. Now I know more about it.

[Andr�s]

Where do the holy scriptures say that this is the only inhabited world anyway?
God could have created billions of alien races in His likeness.
Why would have God created such a vast universe to place life only in this tiny little insignificant rock.

About the age of an alien civilization, remember that human civilization has existed for a tiny fragment of Earth life. For example what would have happened if dinosaurs would have survived and had the chance to evolve into a sentient race. The point is that an alien civilization could have evolved long before humankind or long after. Also consider that earth like worlds were not created all at the same time, some may be much older and others younger.
It is more plausible that an alien culture is either many millions of years ahead or behind us that in a similar cultural age.

IMHO it is very plausible that many alien races are more advanced than us.
It is also plausible that some of them could have already created ships like those I had described a few post ago.
It is very unlikely that any of those ships will reach Earth anytime soon.

Right why is it that according to most sci-fi a race = a nation?
Most likely an alien world would have many countries with a complex history, and many wars, just like us.
Is evolving into a single culture a requisite for reaching space-age?

[cshank2]

Whatif there are other HUMANs out there? Like we were some sort of rebels or whatnot and were exiled to earth (ALA Starcraft style) and since we were stripped of technology we were put back millions of years, just my two cents but I myself have seen a UFO before, I was in Gladstone Michigan and ws riding inthe car with my mom. I look out the wondow over the lake and theres these 2 huge silver balls connected int he middle by a pillar hovering out there then they shot off were ont he horozion in a second then traveled in a diagnol line up... freaky

[CNCRaymond]

Here is a thought for ya to consider.

What if we are all that is left of life out there?

What if there are no more planets for us to colonize?

What if all that we will ever have is what we have here?

Think of it this way; five people are stranded on a desert island with enough rations to Last one month. How long do you think it will take one of them to figure out that if he bumps off the other four, he will have enough rations to keep him alive for many months?

What we have here and now is the best we will ever have it. Our resources are dwindling away and our population is increasing at a tremendous rate. Eventually there will not be enough to go around.

If you take an empty bottle that takes exactly one hour to fill if you start by adding one peanut to it and every minute that follows you double the amount of peanuts you add to it, (1 then 2, then 4, then 8 etc), at what point will that bottle be half full?

Albert Bartlett, a mathematician and economic specialist has shown without a doubt that math does not lie when it comes to growth and consumption of resources. Eventually our growth will out pace our ability to meet our basic demands. That democracy is reduced by growth and that freedom will diminish as our resources do and our population increases.

No religion in the universe is going to save us from ourselves. We are here alone, on this fragile little planet out here in the farthest reaches of known space, all alone in the dark, with no hope for survival. There is going to be no salvation, no utopia, and no future for our race, our planet, or our concept of faith.

God cannot save us, so stop hoping that he will. Our number has been punched before we were ever conceived.

Do this, play a game like Civ3. You start out with this huge map and all this free space. Over time that free space becomes less and less as you expand. Eventually what was once vast open spaces is now all city and full of population. A hundred years ago most of the USA was still wilderness and unpopulated, but now, freeways and housing developments everywhere. Think how bad it is going to be in the next hundred years?

Just remember this simple philosophy, nothing really matter five minutes after you do it. For in a hundred years, what you have done will mean nothing. In a thousand years no one will ever know you did it.

I give us about fifty more years before all hell breaks out and the war to survive begins. No amount of money will protect you when this happens, no amount of faith, no amount of hope. It is simply going to be a matter of survival, for if we do not do something soon; Mother Nature is going to do it for us.

[ February 28, 2003, 04:01: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

[tesco samoa]

Did you know the Romans invented the Steam Engine.

Guess what they used it for.

Yep .... when people would walk into the Baths in Rome their was pressure plates on the ground. When they stepped on it the doors would open... All Powered by a steam engine.

On the topic of the Bible.

Fyron you should not disreguard it.

It is a Scientific book written many many years ago. If it was written today it would resemble the current way we figure out life which is Mathmatics.

And the majority of science that pretains to perception we currently believe to be true will eventually be proven wrong.... History has prooven this. It also prooves I can not spell.

[ZeroAdunn]

Wow CNC, you want to try and depress me a little more?

[Ruatha]

About tunneling.
I haven't had time to read these link yet:
http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoes...nelingftl.html
http://www.comcity.com/distance-time...tunneling.html
But if anyone has the time please do and sum it up.
If I remember correctly it was somethiung about light passing faster through a grid then through vacuum.

Another experiment: (That I haven't read yet, am (kind of) at work, will read later)
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008F9A7-7781-1C76-9B81809EC588E F21&pageNumber=1&catID=9

But wasn't it something about two quarks (I hope that's the english word for "kvarkar") in harmony changes state at the same time disregarding any difference when one of the quarks alter state?

(Sorry about posting links I haven't read yet, but they where on my "read" list and I wanna post before I go and become "un-connected" again for a while.)

[ February 28, 2003, 07:54: Message edited by: Ruatha ]