Mod: Conceptual Balance 1.21

[Zeldor]

Sombre:

Don't forget that Chayot needs some troops around if he has to get into second shape after death. If he is alone he starts to flee if he loses 75% HP of hist first shape.

But yeah, great guy

[Sombre]

EA HINNOM

Conjuration

Summon Mazzikim - N1, RL3 - 8 / 3 Vanilla, 8 / 3 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These are basically imps. Their high defence is a plus and they have two attacks and good att, but with low str they aren't going to do that much in combat. Their cost is already pretty much fair.

Summon Lilot - N4, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. Hinnom can use the Acha and bootstrap up in the normal way, so casting this isn't too tough. These are effectively the same as Succubi - they have the same version of seduce that brings the converted commander to your home province. They have ever so slightly worse stats than the blood summon, but it's barely noticeable. I think they might be slightly overpriced and I'd be happier with them at 1 / 20 or so. They are just weaker succubi after all.


Blood

Summon Se'irim - B2, RL3 - 8 / 33 vanilla, 8 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These guys have some serious offensive power with 3 attacks at str 16 att 13 and berserk +4. They're also sacred. I'm pretty sure they're costed about right - great summon.

Summon Shedim - B3A1, RL4 - 3 / 32 vanilla, 3 / 32 CBM. Castability: Hard. Getting the blood is even less of a problem than it is for Gath, but blood and air combined is still a bit tricky. Unlike Gath Hinnom does have an air mage in the Ammi and will have air gems, so empowering the blood mage to A1 is much easier. If you compare them with storm demons they are physically a bit more powerful and better in melee, but lack ethereality. Other than that they are very similar and should be costed similarly. Hence I suggest 3 / 20.

Release Lord of Civilization - B8, RL9 - 1 / 177 vanilla, 1 / 177 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Unique Commander summon. You get one of the 6 corrupted grigori. Though you have easy access to B3 via the Baal, getting to B8 is far from trivial. That said, it is doable and indeed desirable. My feeling is all of these are well worth the cost - they are all powerful and diverse casters and sacred SCs with flight, mapmove 5, full slots, blood vengeance, shock/fire/poison immunity, varying strengths of fear and stealth. They are also all demons AND magic beings which is worth bearing in mind. Four of them are mage/fortune tellers, the second in command Semyaza is a mage/healer (100!) and Azazel is more of a devoted SC (with an amazing default sword). Again though, any one of them makes an excellent mage or SC and through them you can gain access to unboosted S5, F4, N4, B5, A4 and E4 depending on which you get. Though they are described as seducers, they actually have a totally unique command: "Corrupt Enemy Commander" which works like a Succubus attempt. Semyaza and Azazel are the best at this, but it does mean they are all assassins effectively. I wouldn't suggest reducing the cost at all.

[quantum_mechani]

Sombre said:
they actually have a totally unique command: "Corrupt Enemy Commander" which works like a Succubus attempt.

Actually it's not unique, one of the demon lords has had that since dom2.

Anyway, thanks for the write ups on the new nation summons, my gut feeling on most of them is similar to yours, most look fairly decent already. Though I do think you overrate those nature gem costing imps a bit.

[MaxWilson]

I don't know that I agree about the impossibility of casting Call Merkavah with national troops. At least with Hinnom, you have S3 casters and can forge Starshine Skullcap, Crystal Coin, Ring of Sorcery, Ring of Wizardry, Skull of Fire. Getting to S7F3 then takes either 80 Fire gems of empowerment (S3F2 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Wizardry/Skull of Fire) or 50 Fire gems + 60(?) Pearls (S4F1 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry). Normally that would sound like a lot, but when you're already talking about blowing 220 pearls on the spell it sounds more like sales tax. Or in other words, even if you use a pretender it's not going to be a whole lot cheaper than that.

You can save more if you happen to have access to Dimensional Rod or Staff of Elemental Mastery. S3F1 + Starshine Skullcap/Crystal Coin/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry/Staff of Elemental Mastery = S7F3.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Zeldor said:
Sombre:

Don't forget that Chayot needs some troops around if he has to get into second shape after death. If he is alone he starts to flee if he loses 75% HP of hist first shape.

Is this necessarily true? I don't think SCs with Phoenix Pyre always flee when they're low on HP. Does Phoenix Pyre do funny things to morale?

Note that F4 Chayot can cast Phoenix Pyre and then shapeshift back to S4 form. (Yes, they can cycle through all 4 forms in combat. If I can trust my memory.) Then you have to kill him... lots of times.

-Max

[Sombre]

Well you're right it isn't really impossible max, it's just harder than 'very hard'. At least it is for Gath (s3) and Ashdod (s2). For Hinnom it really is impossible because they don't get the spell.

[Horst F. JENS]

I look very forward for playing with the next verson of the CBM mod. Meanwhile i use an older version of CBM but only spells and items seem to work trouble-free.

[Sombre]

LA ARCOSCEPHALE

Conjuration

Summon Sirrush - RL5, S1E1 - 1 / 10 vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Already a strong sacred unit with the right bless (probably nature). They're size 6 but get 3 attacks at str 22, good attack skill, 80hp, great mr of 16, prot 15. I don't think they need to be made into a 'commander monster' but they could probably do with a little discount, because there are so many uses for astral gems that don't involve summoning cool dragon things. 1 / 8 would be better.


LA ERMOR

I defer to experts in this matter. I have roughly zero experience playing Ashen Empire.



LA MAN


Summon Black Dogs - D2, RL2 - 20 / 10 vanilla, 20 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. You have no recruitable death mages and are unlikely to have death gems, so this is unlikely to get cast. Shame because these little dogs are actually rather good. They have dark power, 100 DV and stealth 20 along with much better combat stats than animals like wolves. Seems like a pretty fair price to me.

Summon Cu Sidhe - N2, RL3 - 7 / 10 vanilla, 7 / 9 CBM. Castability: Hard. No nature mage recruitables, but you do actually have a starting nature gem income. It's interesting to note there are two types of Cu Sidhe in the game, one green one (1770) and one black one (851). The green one is summoned by this spell and is actually quite a fighter, like an upgraded dire wolf with excellent mr. They're one of best animal summons, along with Barghests and Black Dogs. If the spell were 7 / 7 it would see use with a bless, without being overpowered.

Summon Barghests - D2, RL4 - 9 / 13 vanilla, 9 / 11 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. You have no recruitable death mages and are unlikely to have death gems, so this is unlikely to get cast. Barghests are basically upgraded sacred black dogs. Because of this the value of the spell depends somewhat on your bless. With Dark Power 3 and Dark Vision 100 they're also badass in the dark. I think it's right to reduce the cost slightly, but I would suggest reducing the numbers to differentiate this from the Black Dogs summon. 5 / 6 would make them cheaper and less numerous.

Summon Bean Sidhe - D1, RL5 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Although they're only D1 to cast, the fact is you just don't have death mages with this nation. If you do get one it has D1 with a 1/4 chance of D2, so they can at least summon more. As a mage summon you don't get a very useful battlemage, but offering the chance of D2 is actually useful and you can get W1 too which is a new path at least. As a unit it's a pretty good assassin and has a one shot never misses curse ranged attack which is cool, but it's too expensive and hard to cast. I really think it should be reduced to 1 / 20, maybe even lower.


LA ULM

Conjuration

Sloth of Bears - N2, RL4 - 8 / 15 vanilla, 8 / 10 CBM. Castability: Average. 1/4 Fortune Tellers are S1N1 and then there are indies, so it isn't exactly hard to cast this, but isn't easy either. CBM made a good improvement in reducing the cost, but the real problem is the 'Great bear' unit #694 itself. It has att 9 def 7 which definitely needs to be improved, like 11-9 or so. It's also crazy that the bear has only a single claw attack when double attacks for animals are common and bears are well known for using claws and teeth like the big cats. So Great bear should have an additional bite attack to go with the claw. Without this change bears are offensively far too weak and it's really counterintuitive because they seem like they should be offensively powerful.

Pack of Wolves - N2, RL4 - 20 / 25 vanilla, 20 / 15 CBM. Castability: Average. 1/4 Fortune Tellers are S1N1 and then there are indies, so it isn't exactly hard to cast this, but isn't easy either. Even at the CBM price it doesn't seem good for a national spell, especially with other summons (like summon animals and animal horde) being boosted. If it could go to 24 / 16 or 12 / 8 that would be more like it. If you compare dire wolves with something like Cu Sidhe which are far superior AND sacred you see why they have to be so cheap. Oh and they should really be size 3 based on the graphic, not size 2.


Blood

Sanguine Heritage - B3D3, RL0 - 1 / 44 vanilla, 1 / 33 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. You do have access to B1 and D1 through second tiers and fortune tellers, with very rare B2 or B1D1 mages. It's therefore basically a pretender spell and that's the reason for its unusual research level. As a B2D2 mage it can certainly help consolidate and make use of blood and death and its all purpose uses and tricks are well documented. It's a great unit really. I think the CBM price is perfect - it's a real feature of the nation provided you pick the right pretender.



LA MARIGNON

Conjuration

Contact Harbinger - S4, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You have a base S2 mage and with some effort S4 isn't too much of a stretch. As an A3H2 mage it improves your air magic and makes a good commander/battlemage. It can be thugged, but isn't up to the standard of the other angels, though it is sacred and has 50 shock/fire res along with awe+4 so it isn't out of the question as a cheaper thug. The Malakh of Gath is much better in that role though. It carries the Heavenly Horn ranged weapon which is very nice against undead and even undead thugs.

Angelic Host - S5, RL7 - 1+6 / 50 vanilla, 1+6 / 50 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Remote Commander and Troop summon. You get 1 Archangel with 6 Angel troops. Starting from a S2 mage S5 is starting to be quite a stretch, but it's still doable and there's no secondary path to complicate things. The Archangel is F4H3 which gets you a little more fire, but isn't a big deal. He's on par with Fury or Fallen angels as an SC though better suited to chaffkilling with awe+5, sacred and shock/fire res 50. He carries a flambeau as a default weapon which is handy. He comes with 6 Angels of the Host which are mini versions of him with slightly less awe and a lot less hp, but the same resistances, sacred and flambeaus. Taken together you get an army killing task force which with a good bless is extremely powerful. Well worth the cost.

Heavenly Wrath - S3F1, RL7 - 1 / 35 vanilla, 1 / 35 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. Starting with a F2S1 Goetic Master you can boost up to cast this or empower a boosted S2 Royal Navigator in fire. The Angel of Fury has no magical abilities and no leadership: he's built purely for SC duties. He's ok in this respect, slightly better than the Fallen Angel, but lacking the useful combat spells and unable to bless himself. He sports Blood Vengeance 2, Fear+0, sacred and shock and fire res 50. I think the Fallen and Arch angels are pretty much better value SCs which leaves this without a place, so I think it should be 1 / 30 to encourage use. You could also give him #onebattlespell bless.

Heavenly Choir - S7F2, RL9 - 1+12 / 144 vanilla, 1+12 / 144 CBM. Castability: Impossible. A Commander and Troop summon. You get 1 Seraph, 3 Harbinger troops and 9 angels of the choir. On par with the Chayot and generally considered the most powerful SC monster in the game, the Seraph justifies this kind of price tag. She's a flying mapmove 7 F4A4S4H4 sacred, awe+6 fire/shock/poison immune great statted unit with fireshield 10 and the ability to cause eyeloss in anyone who attacks her. The Harbingers are useful due to their heavenly horns vs undead/demons and are worth GoRing if possible, but the 9 angels of the choir are pretty useless - small angels with awe+4 but no offensive ability whatsoever. As a mage summon the Seraph is just too expensive to be worth it and doesn't get you any new paths, only higher levels in them.

Blood

Bind Harlequin - B1, RL1 - 1 / 1 vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. The CBM version is a Commander summon. The move to commander is a smart one - it gives Marignon a budget flying demon leader to ferry devils and the like. He doesn't make any sort of thug, but for 2 blood you absolutely cannot complain. An all purpose servitor style commander at a good cost.

Reascendance - B4S1, RL7 - 1 / 88 vanilla, 1 / 88 CBM. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. 1/4 Goetic masters will be B2S1 and thus this spell can be cast with a little effort to boost or empower blood. The Fallen Angel is F3D3B3 so as a mage summon is extremely useful, getting you into death. As a SC it's solid but not as amazing as some of the other angels out there, sporting only sacred, fire immunity and fear+3 as notable abilites. It's default weapon 'Dark Fire Sword' is very good though and it makes a great leader of flying demons.

[Sombre]

LA MICTLAN


Conjuration

Summon Jaguar Toad - RL1, N1 - 1 / 1 vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These were given a slight stat boost in CBM and a good bost to their prec for the ranged weapon, but it isn't enough. They're still size 3 tramplers that are easy to kill and such crud stats that even a strong bless (which you will almost certainly have) doesn't help. They still deserve a boost to ap at least and I'd strongly suggest making them massable by costing them at 4 / 3.

Summon Jaguars - N2, RL3 - 17 / 25 vanilla, 17 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Jaguars are basically identical to Tigers and Great Lions, but are sacred. I have already suggested making the Pride of Lions spell a national for Machaka, so there's no need to avoid replacing it here. I suggest 7 / 10 which is very similar to the 7 / 7 tigers summon for Tienchi, but allows extra cost as they are sacred. I think I would cast it at that price.

Summon Jade Serpent - W2, RL4 - 1 / 5 vanilla, 1 / 4 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. This recently added summon is very cool. It's sacred, amphibious, has standard 10 and a really nice bite. I'd suggest size 5 instead of 6 (compare it with hydra) and perhaps a small boost to the subpar def of 9. Basically useful at CBM price already though.

Summon Monster Toad - N2, RL5 - 1 / 2 vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These got some minor stat improvements in CBM, though I think they could go a little further, as with their little brothers the jaguar toads. Like the jaguar toads they don't really benefit too much from a bless. Cost is fine, would like to see stats boosted further.

Contact Couatl - N1S1, RL6 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A S3N3H2 flying mage, it offers higher levels in paths you have already, however the higher level in astral is certainly welcome. I still feel the Couatl could do with a small price reduction, because the rest of EA and LA Mictlan's summons and units are so strong and it has to be competative. Maybe 1 / 35 or so.

Summon Tlaloque - W4, RL7 - 1 / 60 vanilla, 1 / 60 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Unique Commander summon. There are 4 different Tlaloques, one for each direction. They all have W4B3H3 which doesn't really provide new paths for LA Mictlan, then each of them has 2 in F,D,A and N respectively. They also autocast rain at the start of a battle. Full slots and ok stats, but they're more thug mages than SCs. I don't think they're really worth their cost, though they can provide access to new paths, notably air and death for LA. I think uniques should get a discount just for being unique, though water gems are perhaps the 'cheapest' type. 1 / 50 would be more of a reward for going far down the conjuration route.


Blood

Bind Beast Bats - B1, RL2 - 3 / 8 vanilla, 3 / 8 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. I think these are fine, especially with the cost of the Jaguar Fiends being raised in CBM.

Bind Jaguar Fiends - B1F1, RL4 - 3 / 13 vanilla, 3 / 18 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. These have always been recognised as very powerful sacreds and for good reason. I think the CBM cost is fine.

Contact Civateteo - B2D2, RL5 - 1 / 25 - RL5, B2D2 - Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. You don't have any recruiable death mages, let alone blood/death. However one of the Tlaloques can cast them and the Onaqui can too, plus you do get minor death from Tlahuelpuchis. They're B1D1H2 and are stealthy, but aren't assassins or spies or anything. They do make pretty good leaders of sacreds and undead, but that isn't a category where mictlan is lacking. Weirdly with their fear(1), undead benefits (enc+immunities), sacred, ethereality and full slots, they make ok potential thugs. Still, due to the difficulty of casting them they should be 1 / 18.

Bind Tzitzimitl - B2S2, RL6 - 1 / 10 vanilla, 1 / 10 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. More sacred demon goodness and like the beast bats they get a look in because the Jaguar Fiends in CBM are priced up a bit. Their stellar bolt ranged attacks are interesting; str based AN damage but with mr negates. I think they should be group summons like the other mict ones and I suggest 3 / 28 for that reason.

Contact Tlahuelpuchi - B2, RL6 - 1 / 25 vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A bit like an upgraded mortal Civateteo that you can actually cast. D1N1B2 paths and they aren't sacred (very unusual for a mict summon), so they offer access into death in a minor way. They can fly, assassinate and in animal shape are very stealthy (+25). Not as thuggable as Civateteos at all, but easier to cast and with their own utility. I think the cost is ok.

Contact Onaqui - B4, RL6 - 1 / 101 vanilla, 1 / 101 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. The Onaqui are D2N1B3H1 with a random in SDNB, so as a mage summon the main thing they offer is death. They have thuggable stats and built in shock res, flight, full slots and stealth, but their main function is arguably as flying leaders/mages as they don't match the unique blood summons as thugs. They domsummon beast bats at what looks to me as Domsummon2 rate, so if you have high dominion they can get a crazy number together very quickly. Considering this their price is fine.

Rain of Jaguars - B6F2, RL8 - 14+ / 40 vanilla, 14+ / 40 CBM. Castability: Hard. Though this is within reach via a boosted up Sun Priest it isn't a trivial matter getting him from B2 to B6. The cost on this seems ok - it's very scary to have to deal with but it isn't spammed the way Jaguar Fiends is.

[Baalz]

Sombre said:
Contact Civateteo - B2D2, RL5 - 1 / 25 - RL5, B2D2 - Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. You don't have any recruiable death mages, let alone blood/death. However one of the Tlaloques can cast them and the Onaqui can too, plus you do get minor death from Tlahuelpuchis. They're B1D1H2 and are stealthy, but aren't assassins or spies or anything. They do make pretty good leaders of sacreds and undead, but that isn't a category where mictlan is lacking. Weirdly with their fear(1), undead benefits (enc+immunities), sacred, ethereality and full slots, they make ok potential thugs. Still, due to the difficulty of casting them they should be 1 / 18.

Gotta disagree with this one. Tlahuelpuchi give you D1, with which it's not that hard to either trade for a skull staff, or worst case amass 30D over several turns of site searching, and with +1D Tlahuelpuchi can summon Civateteos - not easy, but certainly not very hard (at that point it's easy to make more skull staffs). One of your national heroes can summon them as well. Civateteos make *excellent* thugs for the price - sacred (and self blessing), ethereal, life draining attack, enc 0, fear, stealthy - with decent equipment they'll solo most things not set up to take out undead or thugs. They also can reanimate dead and have an undead/demon leadership of 125 which is quite useful as blood mages have trouble leading many demons, they're by far the cheapest demon leader available if you're using lots of beast bats/jaguar fiends.